Diogu again

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:01 pm
#32 wrote:You act like getting "any good coach" is an easy thing. Not everybody wanted the Golden State job after last season's fiasco. 12 years without the playoffs? No defense? No rebounding? Adonal Foyle starting at center? Giant contracts for Murphy and Dunleavy?

What kind of coach do you think would have been chomping at the bit for a job at Golden State? The only good coach we could get was Nelson, #1 because he and Mullin have a great relationship and #2 because we slightly overpaid him.


Hey, overpaying gets you ANY coach. Anyone without a job would be willing to coach the W's. There are only 30 positions like that available. Only Phil Jackson, Riley and a few others have the leverage to say "no, thanks".

#32 wrote:See above. Aside from Larry Brown (who would have been fired after one season, because he would have wanted to trade Dunleavy and Murphy... and neither would go anywhere with their contracts), no coach you listed would have wanted the Golden State job. Like you said, Elie MIGHT have been good, but could have been horrible. Same with Aguirre. And Fratello wasn't available until a week ago. Also, I'm not as high on Terry Porter as you are.


That's debatable. It's just a matter of opinion. I consider all those coaches perfectly able to have this team at .500 (and yeah, we shouldn't count Fratello. It was just an example of another good coach that could have us with a good record).

#32 wrote:Adelman never played Barnes the way Nelson does. Adelman gave the guy a minor role. That's nothing. Anthony Roberson has a role. If he blew up elsewhere next season, would Nelson have discovered him?


Adelman played him as a backup SF (Peja was the starter). His only job was to defend and hustle the minutes he had, and he delivered. He played a similar bball to the one he's playing right now. He's just given more shots and is more important for us. Why?. Because the Kings were a contender at the time. He was the 8th player of that team. We pretty much suck at PF (because Murphy is a non-factor and Ike doesn't play). Barnes is smart and is making the most of his chance.

I just think Nellie's merit is not being afraid to give minutes and shots to the guy (which is extremely important). Barnes is not playing like this because Nellie improved him as a player. He's the same he always was (well, maybe more motivated, but the same player doing the same things).

#32 wrote:How was that not Nelly-ball?!

Murphy at center? Dunleavy at point guard? Baron Davis at shooting guard? Pietrus at power forward???

That looks as Nelly-ball as you can get, to me.


Ok. I'll explain my point. That was Nelly-ball destined to fail. He tried to do so to, I don't know, please the front office or the media, whatever... it's besides the point. Nellie saw what he had in those two and changed his plan on the fly (he tried it for, what?, 3 games or so?). He went with a more classic (for him) lineup. Everybody knew (even Nelly) that Murphy was destined to fail with that lineup and in a Nelly-ball team. The guy can't run, can't defend and can't get boards if there's another body near to him...

#32 wrote:But not playing Ike Diogu is not enough to start incriminating the guy.


Incriminate is a word too strong for what we're saying. We're just stating that not playing Ike a single minute is a mistake. Would we be leading the division with him playing?. Of course not.

But any rookie needs minutes to improve. Nobody improves watching games from the bench. And we certainly wouldn't be a worse team if Nellie were giving Ike 20 min per game (more if he delivers). As a proof, watch almost any game of the season in which he has played.

He doesn't play defense... so what?. Nobody else does (and yes, when any team, not Memphis, ANY team scores over 140 points on you, you should be ashamed. And it has happened twice to this team, as Denver also did it on November).

And if Ike is such a cancer, say it. He's just dropping hints that Ike ain't ready (or that he's a blamer or sh*t like that). If there's something substantial behind them, say it. That hasn't happened yet. Other players are less ready than him and it's all praise (like Dajuan Wagner in preseason. He's going to be back and be a key to the team. Suddenly, he's cut and out of the league again...)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:08 pm
coltraning wrote:
migya wrote:Nelson is a very good coach but it's not like the team is top 4 in the West and kicking every team's arse! The team has lost to some real bad teams, especially lately. One could argue that guys like Monta and Biedrins were going to improve anyway and that the team played so badly last season because of the bad coaching of Monty AND the absence of Baron for a lengthy amount of time! NOW THAT'S MORE TO THE TRUTH! Honestly, Nelson has not made the team that much better at all! Sticking with dun and again Murphy, is not good coaching!

Point here is that Nelson seems to have a dislike for a player that has played very well in very little minutes and that does not only hinder the growth of that good player but also the growth of the team and has cost it some recent games

:D :D :D
This is so well said and balanced, I can add very little. To buttress your point, this time last year in early January the Ws were playing 500 ball, exactly the same as this year, and that's how they would have ended up if BD had not been hurt. The NBA is a player's game, and a coach makes about 3-5 games difference a year. Is Nelson a good coach? Yes. his teams almost always makes the playoffs and are always entertaining. Is he great? No. A coach that has coached for 30 years and never won a ring cannot be considered great. Nelson's dislike of low post players is his Achilles heel in terms of getting to the promised land...




Nelson has been great at judging and obtaining talented players BUT he has not done well with post players and has never been a coach that has given DEFENSE the priority that is has to have! The championship teams; Spurs, Bulls, Pistons etc, have all lead with defense AND a competent offense and yet Nelson has not gone in that direction. Currently on the team there is nearly all young and relatively inexperienced players SO it important to focus on both offense and defense side of the game! If these young guys don't focus on that now, they will likely never be decent defensive player and overall skilled players. Nelson wants to do what he did in the Mavs when he took over but the difference is that he was the GM who made the personnel changes he desired whereas heere is just the coach. ALSO, it took 3 years for his Mavs team to get decent AND he is only supposed to be staying here for 3 years! Wonder what will be established under Nelson that will serve the team well for when the next coach comes in? I doubt it will be a whole lot, especially with a coach that has a totally different style so really, what is the point of getting Nelson if not to try to make the playoffs once or twice? I like Nelson and respect him for what he has done but having him for only 3 years will not establish a winning tradition because he is so different to most coaches. The coach that takes over will have to keep a similar style and run things similar to what Nelson did
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:16 pm
Thats a good point Migya and I have to agree with you. I hadnt thought that far down the road...as just having a playoff year has been the goal as of late.

But Avery Johnson was able to come in to Dallas and teach them some descent D rather quickly, but then again he was working with Nellie at the time and was able to carry over Nellies system while instigating his own.

Maybe that would be a key for GS, groom someone to take over when he leaves? Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:31 pm
Trolloc wrote:Thats a good point Migya and I have to agree with you. I hadnt thought that far down the road...as just having a playoff year has been the goal as of late.

But Avery Johnson was able to come in to Dallas and teach them some descent D rather quickly, but then again he was working with Nellie at the time and was able to carry over Nellies system while instigating his own.

Maybe that would be a key for GS, groom someone to take over when he leaves? Just a thought.

trolloc



It would have to be like that because Nelson coaches very differently to most coaches. Avery carried on what Nelson was doing offensively and he mad decent Centers out of Diop and Mbenga
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:42 am
Main point is this: With all the hoopla and debate and back and forth, the Ws have exactly the same record they did at this point a year ago, before BD was injured, about .500 - and that was with the late and very unlamented Mike Montgomery as coach, and a year less of Biedrins and Ellis and no emergence of Barnes. So, while Nelson has certainly brought a more exciting brand of basketball to the Bay, the evidence is clear that the team, with a healthy Baron Davis, wins about the same amount. I don't see how this makes Nelly a savior...I give him great props for recognizing the obvious, that Dung and Murphy didn't deserve to start, and for giving PT to Ellis, AB and Barnes. Other than his incomprehensible usage of Ike, I have no issue with his line-ups...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:53 am
The only difference this season to last season, up to this point, is that JRich has been injured and a few other guys for a short amount of time so one can say that Nelson has done wlel getting guys like Pirtrus and Barnes to make a difference but Monta was always going to get better and he has basically replaced JRich 3/4 at least. Biedrins has been the biggest surprise as he was going to get better but the surprise is that he has gotten much better very quickly and is probably the most important player of the team. Whether Nelson is responsible for Biedrins's improvement, I don't know, but it is unlikely he had much to do with it. The wins against the real good teams like the Spurs and Jazz are big things but they have also lost against some of the worst teams so Nelson's coaching has not been magical to say the least
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:54 am
migya wrote: what is the point of getting Nelson if not to try to make the playoffs once or twice?


Don't look for anything else. That's the whole point. A quick fix for a team that needed some winning.

migya wrote:Biedrins has been the biggest surprise as he was going to get better but the surprise is that he has gotten much better very quickly and is probably the most important player of the team.


Wait a bit. Baron, like it or not, is still the one that moves this team.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:00 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:Biedrins has been the biggest surprise as he was going to get better but the surprise is that he has gotten much better very quickly and is probably the most important player of the team.


Wait a bit. Baron, like it or not, is still the one that moves this team.




But Biedrins is the best defender and really the only defender at times! Both have been great but without Biedrins the team would have lost alot more where as maybe Baron could be replaced a little easier
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:10 am
migya wrote:But Biedrins is the best defender and really the only defender at times! Both have been great but without Biedrins the team would have lost alot more where as maybe Baron could be replaced a little easier


It's not comparable right now. Our offense relies completely on Baron. Everything goes through him. Biedrins is playing well, but not to the point that the whole team depends on him.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:24 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:But Biedrins is the best defender and really the only defender at times! Both have been great but without Biedrins the team would have lost alot more where as maybe Baron could be replaced a little easier


It's not comparable right now. Our offense relies completely on Baron. Everything goes through him. Biedrins is playing well, but not to the point that the whole team depends on him.



Take him away and what do you have - A team that would have lost 5-8 more games and with next to no defense at all and rebounding! With the injuries to Diogu and Murphy earlier on, the team would have been destroyed inside to say the least. Baron is having a sensational season but other guys would have covered for him better than what hey would have covered for Biedrins
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:37 am
migya wrote:Take him away and what do you have - A team that would have lost 5-8 more games and with next to no defense at all and rebounding! With the injuries to Diogu and Murphy earlier on, the team would have been destroyed inside to say the least.


Ok, but take Baron away and we're 7-27. I'm not Baron's biggest fan, but he's been the key for our record so far. Our backcourt also had lots of injuries this season. Even more than the inside guys.

migya wrote:Baron is having a sensational season but other guys would have covered for him better than what hey would have covered for Biedrins


Who?. McLeod?. Because that's the only position we haven't covered adequately (Monta is a SG, Roberson was a shooting-something...). We have nobody to play PG instead of Baron. If he goes down for a long period, we're back in lottery land.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:50 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:Baron is having a sensational season but other guys would have covered for him better than what hey would have covered for Biedrins


Who?. McLeod?. Because that's the only position we haven't covered adequately (Monta is a SG, Roberson was a shooting-something...). We have nobody to play PG instead of Baron. If he goes down for a long period, we're back in lottery land.



Who do we have besides Biedrins, Diogu and Murphy? O'bryant and Foyle :shock: The team would be in tatters if Biedrins got injured. Monta could have been able to play PG if Baron got hurt and the rest of the guys, like Pietrus and Barnes could have stepped up as wel. Don't get me wrong, Baron should be known as the best player of the team but Biedrins is equally as important if not more
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:55 am
migya wrote:Who do we have besides Biedrins, Diogu and Murphy? O'bryant and Foyle :shock: The team would be in tatters if Biedrins got injured.


Hey, that's more than we have behind Baron.

migya wrote:Monta could have been able to play PG if Baron got hurt and the rest of the guys, like Pietrus and Barnes could have stepped up as wel. Don't get me wrong, Baron should be known as the best player of the team but Biedrins is equally as important if not more


Monta cannot play PG. Or better, he cannot play well at PG. Not yet, at least. Too turnover prone and too "wild" to be effective.

Pietrus and Barnes are doing anything they possibly can. None of them can help at PG in case of an injury there. If Baron had a serious injury, I'm sure our starter would be someone in the NBDL or something like that. We currently have no backup for him.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:12 am
#32 wrote:
coltraning wrote:Is Nelson a good coach? Yes. his teams almost always makes the playoffs and are always entertaining. Is he great? No.

Completely disagree. Is Charles Barkley not "great" because he never won a ring?


I agree. Give Nellie Jordan and Pippen or Kobe and Shaq and he'd have rings.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:58 am
TMC wrote:Hey, overpaying gets you ANY coach. Anyone without a job would be willing to coach the W's. There are only 30 positions like that available. Only Phil Jackson, Riley and a few others have the leverage to say "no, thanks".

Well, then it becomes a "whose the best guy for the job" debate. I, personally, think Don Nelson was the best available option for Golden State (and still is). I don't think anybody else could have used the pieces we had as well as he has.

TMC wrote:That's debatable. It's just a matter of opinion. I consider all those coaches perfectly able to have this team at .500 (and yeah, we shouldn't count Fratello. It was just an example of another good coach that could have us with a good record).

.500 is not as easy as you're making it seem (least of all, in the league's toughest division). Every team in the Pacific thinks they're playoff worthy. Being at .500 in that kind of environment is not a given. If the Warriors were in the Southeast division or the Northwest division, it'd be a different story. It'd be expected. But since they're in the Pacific, .500 is pretty damn good.

TMC wrote:I just think Nellie's merit is not being afraid to give minutes and shots to the guy (which is extremely important). Barnes is not playing like this because Nellie improved him as a player. He's the same he always was (well, maybe more motivated, but the same player doing the same things).

Well, that's my point. Nelly gave the guy an opportunity that he'd never had before... and ended up discovering something. Nobody knew that Barnes would be this good. An improvement? Yes. But not this good.

I don't credit Nelly for creating him; I credit Nelly for finding him in the rotation.

TMC wrote:Ok. I'll explain my point. That was Nelly-ball destined to fail. He tried to do so to, I don't know, please the front office or the media, whatever... it's besides the point. Nellie saw what he had in those two and changed his plan on the fly (he tried it for, what?, 3 games or so?). He went with a more classic (for him) lineup. Everybody knew (even Nelly) that Murphy was destined to fail with that lineup and in a Nelly-ball team. The guy can't run, can't defend and can't get boards if there's another body near to him...

I'm really not sure what you mean here, so I can't respond. It sounds like you think Nelson playing Murphy at center was just (for lack of a better term) a publicity stunt. All I can really say is that I doubt Nelson would take an 'L' just to prove some unknown point to the fans.

TMC wrote:Incriminate is a word too strong for what we're saying.

I don't think so. Everybody's acting like it's purely Nelson's fault that this team is at .500 (as opposed to a higher record). The truth is, this team's been plagued with injuries, Murphy and Richardson have both had setback years, and we're relying way too heavily on Baron Davis. Don't forget, Ike was out for 6 weeks. And he didn't have a firm grasp on the playbook to begin with. Therefore, Nelson's played him sporadically lately, but I'm sure he'll have a normal spot in the rotation once he gets the playbook down.

This is not so big a deal that we need "FREE IKE DIOGU" signs flying everywhere. The man will be in the rotation when he gets the book down. Stop being so dramatic, like he's gonna sit the whole damn year.

TMC wrote:And if Ike is such a cancer, say it. He's just dropping hints that Ike ain't ready (or that he's a blamer or sh*t like that). If there's something substantial behind them, say it. That hasn't happened yet. Other players are less ready than him and it's all praise (like Dajuan Wagner in preseason. He's going to be back and be a key to the team. Suddenly, he's cut and out of the league again...)

I seriously doubt Nelson would BS around something if there was anything to be said. To his credit, Nelson's always been honest with the fans. That was one of the most frustating things about the Monty-Era; nobody knew what was going on backstage. With Nelson, the guy's shooting off new quotes every day. I seriously doubt he's hiding something (and, if he is, it's to protect Diogu, not hinder him).
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