Diogu again

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:15 am
Well, to weigh in as a designated defender of Ike, other than Nelson's classless public shaming of Ike for mixing it up with the leading complainer on the team, Dung, I have read and seen nothing about Ike being a complainer other than from 32's posts. I am open to evidence, but I'd like to see some. I have watched Ike very closely in the limited minutes he has received and this is what I see, as fair and balanced as I can be.

On the plus:

Guy is an absolutely natural scorer down low, who will either score or get to the line 8 out of 10 times from the low block.

Excellent free throw shooter

Has developed a sweet 18 footer and doesn't force his range too long (as opposed to Murphy)

Thrives on banging down low and knows how to score when being hacked.

Seems relaxed and easygoing both on and off the court and seems to have the affection of everyone on the team except Dung, Murphy and Nelson (probably a bad three to have dislike you).

Nice instinct for blocks.

Has a hunger for boards, outboarding men several inches taller.

Negatives:

Clueless on defensive position. Arms out of control, weak on rotations, way too many cheap fouls.

Prone to turnovers, esp. double dribbles

Not an especially fast mover on the court, which is probably what hurts him the most in Nelson's offensive scheme.

A low post player, which is great if your coach is Hubie brown, Larry Brown, Jeff van Gundy, Jerry Sloan, but not if your coach is Don Nelson.

Seems unsure of how to move in the offense on those days when Baron has decided he is NOT going to do the screen and roll or if the screen and roll is simply not available.

His constant short-sheeting of nelson's bed, putting tiger balm in Nelson's jock strap and f**king Nelson's wife on alternate Tuesdays, plus refusing the 3 way with nelly and Dung also hurt him severely. :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:25 pm
#32 wrote:Nelson's been quoted saying he doesn't want to abandon the small lineup because that seems to be their best lineup. You can't really argue; Matt Barnes has done a great job knocking down three's as a 4.




Barnes has been sensational and deserves all the credit and good slary contract proposals for how he has played this season BUT Diogu could not only do better but has got the skills that the team needs more. If Diogu is not to be the starting PF, he is at least good for 15mins a game (AT LEAST), not 0 MINUTES!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:27 pm
coltraning wrote:Well, to weigh in as a designated defender of Ike, other than Nelson's classless public shaming of Ike for mixing it up with the leading complainer on the team, Dung, I have read and seen nothing about Ike being a complainer other than from 32's posts. I am open to evidence, but I'd like to see some. I have watched Ike very closely in the limited minutes he has received and this is what I see, as fair and balanced as I can be.

On the plus:

Guy is an absolutely natural scorer down low, who will either score or get to the line 8 out of 10 times from the low block.

Excellent free throw shooter

Has developed a sweet 18 footer and doesn't force his range too long (as opposed to Murphy)

Thrives on banging down low and knows how to score when being hacked.

Seems relaxed and easygoing both on and off the court and seems to have the affection of everyone on the team except Dung, Murphy and Nelson (probably a bad three to have dislike you).

Nice instinct for blocks.

Has a hunger for boards, outboarding men several inches taller.

Negatives:

Clueless on defensive position. Arms out of control, weak on rotations, way too many cheap fouls.

Prone to turnovers, esp. double dribbles

Not an especially fast mover on the court, which is probably what hurts him the most in Nelson's offensive scheme.

A low post player, which is great if your coach is Hubie brown, Larry Brown, Jeff van Gundy, Jerry Sloan, but not if your coach is Don Nelson.

Seems unsure of how to move in the offense on those days when Baron has decided he is NOT going to do the screen and roll or if the screen and roll is simply not available.


:D

Let there be evidence (there probably isn't any)!


coltraning wrote:His constant short-sheeting of nelson's bed, putting tiger balm in Nelson's jock strap and f**king Nelson's wife on alternate Tuesdays, plus refusing the 3 way with nelly and Dung also hurt him severely. :wink:


Nelson and dun are probably lucky - Black guys are supposed to be bigger and they would have trouble sitting :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:07 pm
coltraning wrote:On the plus:

Guy is an absolutely natural scorer down low, who will either score or get to the line 8 out of 10 times from the low block.

Excellent free throw shooter

Has developed a sweet 18 footer and doesn't force his range too long (as opposed to Murphy)

Thrives on banging down low and knows how to score when being hacked.

Seems relaxed and easygoing both on and off the court and seems to have the affection of everyone on the team except Dung, Murphy and Nelson (probably a bad three to have dislike you).

All of these pluses say the same thing: the guy can score. There's no doubt about it. When Diogu is in the game, he's instant-offense. Anyone who says otherwise is either uninformed or ignorant.

coltraning wrote:Nice instinct for blocks.

Which, basically, means that he'll have a couple good showings on defense, due to extra effort, but doesn't know where to be, most of the time. One could argue that this is worse than not being able to play defense. Unlike a guy like Troy Murphy, who at least puts a body on his man and tries to make him miss, Ike has been cluelessly seen leaping across the key (trying for a help block) and allowing easy dunks & lay-ups. The man has a natural knack for blocking shots because he's big and lengthy; but if he doesn't know where to be, he's hindering the team. There's way around that.

coltraning wrote:Negatives:

Clueless on defensive position. Arms out of control, weak on rotations, way too many cheap fouls.

Prone to turnovers, esp. double dribbles

Not an especially fast mover on the court, which is probably what hurts him the most in Nelson's offensive scheme.

A low post player, which is great if your coach is Hubie brown, Larry Brown, Jeff van Gundy, Jerry Sloan, but not if your coach is Don Nelson.

Seems unsure of how to move in the offense on those days when Baron has decided he is NOT going to do the screen and roll or if the screen and roll is simply not available.

These are all pretty true... I don't really buy the stereotype about Nelson and post-players. Honestly, the man's never really had any good post players... and the one's he has had thrived under him (Webber, Cummings, Biedrins).

Basically, what I'm hearing is that everyone here wants to cruxify Nelson for not playing Ike Diogu. Does anyone need to be reminded of all the things Nelson's done for Golden State this season? How about discovering Matt Barnes, motivating Baron Davis back to All-Star form, benching Dunleavy & Foyle, giving Biedrins the starting spot, unleashing Monta Ellis, getting Foyle 30 pounds lighter (and making him a legit, workable role player again), and (most imporantly) GETTING GOLDEN STATE BACK TO AN 8TH SEED.

Don Nelson has been an absolute savior since he's come back... and, suddenly, everybody is bashing the hell out of the guy because he won't play Ike Diogu. That's one single mistake out of an entire payload of good choices. Sorry. But I can't incriminate the guy whose made all the difference this year. It's ignorant to think that Golden State would be back at .500 without Don Nelson (no matter HOW much Ike was playing).

But, go ahead. You guys keeps slandering him.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:27 am
Nelson is a very good coach but it's not like the team is top 4 in the West and kicking every team's arse! The team has lost to some real bad teams, especially lately. One could argue that guys like Monta and Biedrins were going to improve anyway and that the team played so badly last season because of the bad coaching of Monty AND the absence of Baron for a lengthy amount of time! NOW THAT'S MORE TO THE TRUTH! Honestly, Nelson has not made the team that much better at all! Sticking with dun and again Murphy, is not good coaching!

Point here is that Nelson seems to have a dislike for a player that has played very well in very little minutes and that does not only hinder the growth of that good player but also the growth of the team and has cost it some recent games
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:40 am
#32 wrote:Don Nelson has been an absolute savior since he's come back... and, suddenly, everybody is bashing the hell out of the guy because he won't play Ike Diogu. That's one single mistake out of an entire payload of good choices. Sorry. But I can't incriminate the guy whose made all the difference this year. It's ignorant to think that Golden State would be back at .500 without Don Nelson (no matter HOW much Ike was playing).


Savior?. Far from that. He's a good coach, something we sorely missed with Monty. That's the only difference. He ain't doing anything special with this team. Just playing Nellie ball and winning the home games and losing the road games. He's doing what he's supposed to do (which is winning, as his resumé shows) but not more than was expected. The team has not improved much (it's more that the team looked much worse than it was during the Monty tenure). These are the real W's. A .500 team as you say. But ANY good coach would have us at .500. Nellie's doing a good job, as he always does, but not a highly exceptional one.

I guess that our point is that we think we could be even better with Ike playing more minutes. Nobody is saying that he should play 35 min per game (or even that he should start), just that the way he has played (when he did) does not deserve several DNP. I mean, McLeod plays more than Ike...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:58 am
TMC wrote:Nobody is saying that he should play 35 min per game (or even that he should start)



I certainly am! He should start and play at least 30mins!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:14 am
TMC wrote:Savior?. Far from that. He's a good coach, something we sorely missed with Monty. That's the only difference. He ain't doing anything special with this team. Just playing Nellie ball and winning the home games and losing the road games. He's doing what he's supposed to do (which is winning, as his resumé shows) but not more than was expected. The team has not improved much (it's more that the team looked much worse than it was during the Monty tenure). These are the real W's. A .500 team as you say. But ANY good coach would have us at .500. Nellie's doing a good job, as he always does, but not a highly exceptional one.

I guess that our point is that we think we could be even better with Ike playing more minutes. Nobody is saying that he should play 35 min per game (or even that he should start), just that the way he has played (when he did) does not deserve several DNP. I mean, McLeod plays more than Ike...

I'm just tired of the Nelly bashing.

I think you guys are seriously missing a lot of what he's done here. Everybody's assuming that the Warriors would be playing this way anyway with any other coach. I think that's wrong.

Name another coach we could have brought in that would have gotten Baron Davis back to this form? Possibly Paul Silas... and that's only because he was proven to work well with Baron before. But that's it. And Silas wouldn't have really helped anywhere else, either. Mario Elie probably would have been too much of a hardass for him, Larry Brown would have been impossible, he'd completely lost it with Montgomery... and the list goes on and on.

Chris Mullin brought in Matt Barnes to be a warm body on the practice squad... and Nelson saw something in him. And now, he's getting a new career high in points every night. That was a good find by Nelson (showing his eye for talent, which very few other coaches have).

Sure, Nelson tried Nelly-ball during the opener... but quickly reformed his plan after that night. Has Murphy started at center since the first week? Has Dunleavy played the point more often than Baron? Or Barnes? Or Monta? Of course not. Nelson's the master of the mismatch, so he'll use awkward lineups every now and then (Dunleavy at center, Foyle & Biedrins, Pietrus at PF, ect), but, for the most part, the Warriors starting lineup is a pretty normal one: Biedrins at center, Barnes at PF, Pietrus at SF, Richardson at SG, and Baron at point. Aside from Barnes being a tad short for the 4, there's no real stretch in there.

You can claim that any coach would have brought in this type of success, but I seriously doubt it. Besides, this forum (as it usually does) is getting ahead of itself: we're at the 8th seed right now, gents. That's the goal. Not Top 4 in the West, not even 5th or 6th... the goal, ultimately, is simply to make the playoffs. And, at this right, we'll do that. For the first time in over a decade. Thanks, mostly, to Chris Mullin and Don Nelson (who've assembled this team and used it correctly).

Nelly bashing is beyond me. I can't imagine stoning somebody whose brought a horde of good things to this team (maybe that's why I wasn't a Fish Hater, either...?).
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:38 am
#32 wrote:I'm just tired of the Nelly bashing.


It's not bashing. I've said he's doing a good job, just not an extraordinary one. Where's the bashing?

#32 wrote:I think you guys are seriously missing a lot of what he's done here. Everybody's assuming that the Warriors would be playing this way anyway with any other coach. I think that's wrong.


With ANY other GOOD coach. Yes. Monty wasn't one, so we sucked pretty bad last year.

#32 wrote:Name another coach we could have brought in that would have gotten Baron Davis back to this form? Possibly Paul Silas... and that's only because he was proven to work well with Baron before. But that's it. And Silas wouldn't have really helped anywhere else, either. Mario Elie probably would have been too much of a hardass for him, Larry Brown would have been impossible, he'd completely lost it with Montgomery... and the list goes on and on.


I don't think Silas would have done anything remarkable. Never really liked him. Instead, add Terry Porter to that list. I'm pretty sure our record would be similar to the one we have. Fratello is available right now and also would have been a good coach.

About the others you mention, Elie would have been a question mark. Probably not better, with the risk of being worse. Larry Brown would have taken two years tinkering with the roster before having a winner.

Also, some assistants are pretty intriguing as future head coaches (not only Elie, also Mark Aguirre in NY, for example). Several of them could have been succesful with us.

#32 wrote:Chris Mullin brought in Matt Barnes to be a warm body on the practice squad... and Nelson saw something in him. And now, he's getting a new career high in points every night. That was a good find by Nelson (showing his eye for talent, which very few other coaches have).


Come on. Barnes also played like this for the Kings. Nellie just has the brain to play him, unlike O'Brien and the other coaches he had (it was Herb Williams when he was in NY?). It can't be a discovery when Rick Adelman did it before (btw, add Adelman to the list of capable coaches available. I wouldn't like him near the W's after his tenure, but he's a good coach).

#32 wrote:Sure, Nelson tried Nelly-ball during the opener... but quickly reformed his plan after that night. Has Murphy started at center since the first week? Has Dunleavy played the point more often than Baron? Or Barnes? Or Monta? Of course not. Nelson's the master of the mismatch, so he'll use awkward lineups every now and then (Dunleavy at center, Foyle & Biedrins, Pietrus at PF, ect), but, for the most part, the Warriors starting lineup is a pretty normal one: Biedrins at center, Barnes at PF, Pietrus at SF, Richardson at SG, and Baron at point. Aside from Barnes being a tad short for the 4, there's no real stretch in there.


That wasn't Nelly-ball. He just tried to get something out of nothing. Didn't work and went with what he always did (and which made him one of the most winningest coaches ever). Barnes is a SF, not PF. It's just that Nellie doesn't have any confidence in Ike and Murphy sucks.

#32 wrote:You can claim that any coach would have brought in this type of success, but I seriously doubt it. Besides, this forum (as it usually does) is getting ahead of itself: we're at the 8th seed right now, gents. That's the goal. Not Top 4 in the West, not even 5th or 6th... the goal, ultimately, is simply to make the playoffs. And, at this right, we'll do that. For the first time in over a decade. Thanks, mostly, to Chris Mullin and Don Nelson (who've assembled this team and used it correctly).


Not any coach. ANY GOOD COACH. BIG difference.

Once again, I've said that Nellie is doing a good job, just not outstanding. How can I be bashing him when I'm saying he's done well?. I just don't think he's been spot on on EVERY decision he's made.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:56 am
TMC, you beat me to it all :)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:00 am
migya wrote:TMC, you beat me to it all :)


Hey, it was an answer to my post. I kinda felt compelled to type as fast as I possibly could. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:11 pm
TMC wrote:
#32 wrote:I think you guys are seriously missing a lot of what he's done here. Everybody's assuming that the Warriors would be playing this way anyway with any other coach. I think that's wrong.


With ANY other GOOD coach. Yes. Monty wasn't one, so we sucked pretty bad last year.

You act like getting "any good coach" is an easy thing. Not everybody wanted the Golden State job after last season's fiasco. 12 years without the playoffs? No defense? No rebounding? Adonal Foyle starting at center? Giant contracts for Murphy and Dunleavy?

What kind of coach do you think would have been chomping at the bit for a job at Golden State? The only good coach we could get was Nelson, #1 because he and Mullin have a great relationship and #2 because we slightly overpaid him.

TMC wrote:I don't think Silas would have done anything remarkable. Never really liked him. Instead, add Terry Porter to that list. I'm pretty sure our record would be similar to the one we have. Fratello is available right now and also would have been a good coach.

About the others you mention, Elie would have been a question mark. Probably not better, with the risk of being worse. Larry Brown would have taken two years tinkering with the roster before having a winner.

Also, some assistants are pretty intriguing as future head coaches (not only Elie, also Mark Aguirre in NY, for example). Several of them could have been succesful with us.

See above. Aside from Larry Brown (who would have been fired after one season, because he would have wanted to trade Dunleavy and Murphy... and neither would go anywhere with their contracts), no coach you listed would have wanted the Golden State job. Like you said, Elie MIGHT have been good, but could have been horrible. Same with Aguirre. And Fratello wasn't available until a week ago. Also, I'm not as high on Terry Porter as you are.

TMC wrote:Come on. Barnes also played like this for the Kings. Nellie just has the brain to play him, unlike O'Brien and the other coaches he had (it was Herb Williams when he was in NY?). It can't be a discovery when Rick Adelman did it before (btw, add Adelman to the list of capable coaches available. I wouldn't like him near the W's after his tenure, but he's a good coach).

Adelman never played Barnes the way Nelson does. Adelman gave the guy a minor role. That's nothing. Anthony Roberson has a role. If he blew up elsewhere next season, would Nelson have discovered him?

TMC wrote:That wasn't Nelly-ball. He just tried to get something out of nothing. Didn't work and went with what he always did (and which made him one of the most winningest coaches ever). Barnes is a SF, not PF. It's just that Nellie doesn't have any confidence in Ike and Murphy sucks.

How was that not Nelly-ball?!

Murphy at center? Dunleavy at point guard? Baron Davis at shooting guard? Pietrus at power forward???

That looks as Nelly-ball as you can get, to me.

TMC wrote:Not any coach. ANY GOOD COACH. BIG difference.

Once again, I've said that Nellie is doing a good job, just not outstanding. How can I be bashing him when I'm saying he's done well?. I just don't think he's been spot on on EVERY decision he's made.

And, once again, getting a GOOD COACH is not as easy as you're making it seem.

I don't support every move Nelson's done, either. But not playing Ike Diogu is not enough to start incriminating the guy. Anyone whose watched this season knows that the opposition scores a lot (due to more possessions), and yet everyone's shitting themselves that Memphis scored 144. Big deal. If it wasn't the Grizz, it would have been someone else. No need to throw a huge fit over that.

People around here are calling Nelson names, blaming all these losses on the fact that he's not playing Diogu (:roll: Yes, seriously), and, for some reason, suddenly his drinking has been brought up again (as if that's been a problem, so far). This is all alarmist BS to me. Nothing's blowing up. Nothing's crumbling. No need to panic.

If Nelson doesn't play Diogu eventually, Mullin will have a talk with him. Mullin loves Diogu. Don't worry about Ike leaving. Right now, I'd bet Chris Mullin would take Ike over Nelson.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:07 pm
migya wrote:Nelson is a very good coach but it's not like the team is top 4 in the West and kicking every team's arse! The team has lost to some real bad teams, especially lately. One could argue that guys like Monta and Biedrins were going to improve anyway and that the team played so badly last season because of the bad coaching of Monty AND the absence of Baron for a lengthy amount of time! NOW THAT'S MORE TO THE TRUTH! Honestly, Nelson has not made the team that much better at all! Sticking with dun and again Murphy, is not good coaching!

Point here is that Nelson seems to have a dislike for a player that has played very well in very little minutes and that does not only hinder the growth of that good player but also the growth of the team and has cost it some recent games

:D :D :D
This is so well said and balanced, I can add very little. To buttress your point, this time last year in early January the Ws were playing 500 ball, exactly the same as this year, and that's how they would have ended up if BD had not been hurt. The NBA is a player's game, and a coach makes about 3-5 games difference a year. Is Nelson a good coach? Yes. his teams almost always makes the playoffs and are always entertaining. Is he great? No. A coach that has coached for 30 years and never won a ring cannot be considered great. Nelson's dislike of low post players is his Achilles heel in terms of getting to the promised land...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:11 pm
#32 wrote:
People around here are calling Nelson names, blaming all these losses on the fact that he's not playing Diogu (:roll: Yes, seriously),

If Nelson doesn't play Diogu eventually, Mullin will have a talk with him. Mullin loves Diogu. Don't worry about Ike leaving. Right now, I'd bet Chris Mullin would take Ike over Nelson.

hope you are right. It is true there has been some name-calling of Nelson (hey, it's sports forum, we ain't exactly the most evolved of the species), but I have never read anyone blaming the losses on Ike's lack of playing time, though...I think the gist is, we all love Ike (including you, 32) and think he is getting a raw deal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:41 pm
coltraning wrote:Is Nelson a good coach? Yes. his teams almost always makes the playoffs and are always entertaining. Is he great? No.

Completely disagree. Is Charles Barkley not "great" because he never won a ring?
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