Big question about officials study: What if it's right?

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:39 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:I've explained already in this thread what I mean. It wouldn't slow the game a whole lot but when a foul is called and the game is stopped, that can be reviewed quickly and won't cost any more time at least


Best case, 30 seconds per foul... worst case, a couple of minutes if there's doubt.



There's always time taken when a foul is called and in that time, the play can be reviewed. When there are real disputable calls and missed calls, it can take a few more seconds but really somthing worth doing
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:27 pm
I don't think adding another half hour to the games would be bad, so long as the calls are right.

The problem comes in when you get to non-whistles; how do you handle that? For example, Stephen Jackson was getting continually clubbed on his way to the basket last night and none of the referees were batting an eye. What can the league do to prevent that sort of legal mugging from taking place? You can't give Nellie a challege flat; basketball's too fast-paced.

The idea of reviewing calls is one thing; but how do you fix non-calls?
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:29 pm
32 wrote:The idea of reviewing calls is one thing; but how do you fix non-calls?


Same way. The challenge should be allowed both ways. That's why I think it can't be done unless, as Colt suggested, each team is given a limited number of challenges...
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:33 pm
TMC wrote:
32 wrote:The idea of reviewing calls is one thing; but how do you fix non-calls?


Same way. The challenge should be allowed both ways. That's why I think it can't be done unless, as Colt suggested, each team is given a limited number of challenges...

But basketball's so fast that a challenge sounds impossible. In football, a challenge flag needs to be thrown before the next snap. In basketball, there's no 30-second pause to huddle, plan the attack, and start the play. Basketball challenges sound problematic from the start.

The whole idea of reviewing plays is good, in theory, but there's no design that could possibly keep every party (the ref's, the coaches, the player's, the fans) happy. If anybody proposes one, I'd be glad to hear it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:36 pm
32 wrote:But basketball's so fast that a challenge sounds impossible. In football, a challenge flag needs to be thrown before the next snap. In basketball, there's no 30-second pause to huddle, plan the attack, and start the play. Basketball challenges sound problematic from the start.

The whole idea of reviewing plays is good, in theory, but there's no design that could possibly keep every party (the ref's, the coaches, the player's, the fans) happy. If anybody proposes one, I'd be glad to hear it.


Don't tell me. I'm with you on that. That's what I've been saying for a while. Would add too much time to the games (unless there's a limit) and would be hard to implement.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:49 am
I know what you guys are saying. My resolution is to actually have designated referrees on the sideline looking at the replays. It is alright stopping the game even half a minute after a foul was committed as long as it is the right call. Would be complicated but again, the right call would be made. Maybe some sort of computer could also be used to help (though there is always the error possibility)
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:35 am
Thats where the power struggle comes into play. A lot of times, a foul is a judgement call. What happens when the replay official steps on the toes of the referee on the floor? And who has the final say?

Example: the floor referee dismisses physicality as tough play, while the replay official thinks there was enough contact to warrant a foul. Whose judgement rules?
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:43 am
That is anissue but there will have to be rules laid down for that. My point is that the right calls should be made as much as possible
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:07 pm
Thats a sound point, in principle. I don't think anybody in the world would disagree with you. But executing it is the problem.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:15 pm
At the very least something to look into and I do think the nba will sooner or later bring something in like that where replays are used but it will be much less involved than I think it should or could be
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:01 pm
32 wrote:Oh, don't get me wrong. You'll get zero referee support from me (and that's speaking as a former basketball referee, myself). But I just didn't think the study seemed credible enough, after finding out that they used box scores instead of actual game footage.

If the points that colt brings up are all, in fact, true, than the NBA has a devastating case against them. But, as appealing as it is to simply incriminate the referees, I think that a study making that kind of claim has to be absolutely certain, which this study is not. I'm not saying it's not true, or that the evidence presented is wrong, I'm simply saying that they'd need a much stronger case against an association like the NBA.


I don't see how using box-scores hurts the credibility of the study. They threw out all mixed officiating crews so all fouls were called by a ref that can be identified as either white or black. Ofcourse one can argue that maybe these things are more evident when an all-black or all-white crew come together but there's no uncertainty in the data at all.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:45 pm
cladden wrote:
32 wrote:Oh, don't get me wrong. You'll get zero referee support from me (and that's speaking as a former basketball referee, myself). But I just didn't think the study seemed credible enough, after finding out that they used box scores instead of actual game footage.

If the points that colt brings up are all, in fact, true, than the NBA has a devastating case against them. But, as appealing as it is to simply incriminate the referees, I think that a study making that kind of claim has to be absolutely certain, which this study is not. I'm not saying it's not true, or that the evidence presented is wrong, I'm simply saying that they'd need a much stronger case against an association like the NBA.


I don't see how using box-scores hurts the credibility of the study. They threw out all mixed officiating crews so all fouls were called by a ref that can be identified as either white or black. Ofcourse one can argue that maybe these things are more evident when an all-black or all-white crew come together but there's no uncertainty in the data at all.

By far the most damning part of the study is the one getting the least attention. Thanks to Pest for, well, Pesting out these #s. All-White crews call triple the ratio of Ts and double the number of flagrants on Black players, compared to white players. I think Sjax and BD would agree with that. It's the part of the study that is beyond any statistical ambiguity and is the most troubling.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 8:22 pm
coltraning wrote:
cladden wrote:
32 wrote:Oh, don't get me wrong. You'll get zero referee support from me (and that's speaking as a former basketball referee, myself). But I just didn't think the study seemed credible enough, after finding out that they used box scores instead of actual game footage.

If the points that colt brings up are all, in fact, true, than the NBA has a devastating case against them. But, as appealing as it is to simply incriminate the referees, I think that a study making that kind of claim has to be absolutely certain, which this study is not. I'm not saying it's not true, or that the evidence presented is wrong, I'm simply saying that they'd need a much stronger case against an association like the NBA.


I don't see how using box-scores hurts the credibility of the study. They threw out all mixed officiating crews so all fouls were called by a ref that can be identified as either white or black. Ofcourse one can argue that maybe these things are more evident when an all-black or all-white crew come together but there's no uncertainty in the data at all.


By far the most damning part of the study is the one getting the least attention. Thanks to Pest for, well, Pesting out these #s. All-White crews call triple the ratio of Ts and double the number of flagrants on Black players, compared to white players. I think Sjax and BD would agree with that. It's the part of the study that is beyond any statistical ambiguity and is the most troubling.



That definately is the most glaring part of that study. Racism, even in small doses, is alive in professional ranks and wil likely never leave. It is a natural thing I might add to like things that are most like you and to not like as much or distance yourself rom things that are more different. Therein lies the basis of it all. Humans will tend to stick up for each other more than they would a gorilla or any other animal because another human is more like oneself. When it comes to interaction amongst humans, it is a negative in a humanity trying to become unified once and for all but the fact is that natural instincts are real and innate and will likely never be superceded by so called proper manner, such as treating people from a different race exactly the same as you would those of your own race
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:20 am
coltraning wrote:
cladden wrote:
32 wrote:Oh, don't get me wrong. You'll get zero referee support from me (and that's speaking as a former basketball referee, myself). But I just didn't think the study seemed credible enough, after finding out that they used box scores instead of actual game footage.

If the points that colt brings up are all, in fact, true, than the NBA has a devastating case against them. But, as appealing as it is to simply incriminate the referees, I think that a study making that kind of claim has to be absolutely certain, which this study is not. I'm not saying it's not true, or that the evidence presented is wrong, I'm simply saying that they'd need a much stronger case against an association like the NBA.


I don't see how using box-scores hurts the credibility of the study. They threw out all mixed officiating crews so all fouls were called by a ref that can be identified as either white or black. Ofcourse one can argue that maybe these things are more evident when an all-black or all-white crew come together but there's no uncertainty in the data at all.

By far the most damning part of the study is the one getting the least attention. Thanks to Pest for, well, Pesting out these #s. All-White crews call triple the ratio of Ts and double the number of flagrants on Black players, compared to white players. I think Sjax and BD would agree with that. It's the part of the study that is beyond any statistical ambiguity and is the most troubling.

Those numbers don't surprise me. I've been watching Stephen Jackson get legally mugged by the Utah Jazz for 4 straight games and he's getting little to no calls. Even the blindingly obvious calls aren't being made, when it involves Stephen Jackson.

You can say what you want about a guy, his history, or his attitude... but its just not right to allow someone to get clubbed and not hit back. Jackson's been whistled for ticky-tack fouls all series. That wouldn't bother me if it went both ways, but, unfortunately, Stephen Jackson gets NO whistles at all.

I used to think (when Jackson was on the Pacers) that he was whining for no reason... but now, when I see him play all the time, I can clearly see that he's complaining about bad calls. Jackson never yells at the ref over nothing.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:53 pm
32 wrote:
coltraning wrote:
cladden wrote:
32 wrote:Oh, don't get me wrong. You'll get zero referee support from me (and that's speaking as a former basketball referee, myself). But I just didn't think the study seemed credible enough, after finding out that they used box scores instead of actual game footage.

If the points that colt brings up are all, in fact, true, than the NBA has a devastating case against them. But, as appealing as it is to simply incriminate the referees, I think that a study making that kind of claim has to be absolutely certain, which this study is not. I'm not saying it's not true, or that the evidence presented is wrong, I'm simply saying that they'd need a much stronger case against an association like the NBA.


I don't see how using box-scores hurts the credibility of the study. They threw out all mixed officiating crews so all fouls were called by a ref that can be identified as either white or black. Ofcourse one can argue that maybe these things are more evident when an all-black or all-white crew come together but there's no uncertainty in the data at all.

By far the most damning part of the study is the one getting the least attention. Thanks to Pest for, well, Pesting out these #s. All-White crews call triple the ratio of Ts and double the number of flagrants on Black players, compared to white players. I think Sjax and BD would agree with that. It's the part of the study that is beyond any statistical ambiguity and is the most troubling.

Those numbers don't surprise me. I've been watching Stephen Jackson get legally mugged by the Utah Jazz for 4 straight games and he's getting little to no calls. Even the blindingly obvious calls aren't being made, when it involves Stephen Jackson.

You can say what you want about a guy, his history, or his attitude... but its just not right to allow someone to get clubbed and not hit back. Jackson's been whistled for ticky-tack fouls all series. That wouldn't bother me if it went both ways, but, unfortunately, Stephen Jackson gets NO whistles at all.

I used to think (when Jackson was on the Pacers) that he was whining for no reason... but now, when I see him play all the time, I can clearly see that he's complaining about bad calls. Jackson never yells at the ref over nothing.

yes indeed. Beyond the systemic racial bias, there are "special" rules for players like Sheed, Artest and Jackson. They have zero leash, get T'd for clapping or smiling, and get no calls when they are mugged. I have grown to have tremendous admiration for Sjax. He knows the deal and is having to bite his tongue over sanctioned muggings. It looks very much like baron is now going through the same deal. At the oracle in the 2nd half yesterday, I was 8 rows from the foul line when the ws were on offense, and I saw Jackson and Davis CLUBBED and I mean CLUBBED at least 3-4 times each, right in front of the refs and no calls made. You can't tell me the refs did not have a discussion about that.
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