32 wrote:You'll hear the repeated argument from Diogu sympathizers that all he needs is minutes... but Montgomery gave Diogu a shot, if you recall, during last January. Diogu became the starting center for a short period of time... and not even increased minutes helped the big guy get any better. Add in the fact that Don Nelson was giving him nearly 15 minutes a night as a Warrior and, well, the evidence is pretty conclusive.

Come on, playing Ike at Center was retarded. One of the dumbest moves during Monty's tenure. It was destined to be a disaster.

I agree that Ike is not ready for starter minutes, but Carlisle barely plays any young guys (with Granger the sole exception, but look at other young players like Harrison or Shawnee Williams...) and Ike never fitted Nellie's style.

I still think he can make it big. He just needs a coach that can use his game and a team in which he'll be able to get minutes (which won't happen in Indy as long as Jermaine stays there). He's a tough sell, if you want, but by no means a bad player.

Ike got 8 starts at center last year. Do you know who he was opposed by?

- Mark Blount, BOS
- Eric Dampier, DAL
- Stromile Swift, HOU (Yao was injured... and Mutumbo played 10 minutes)
- Lorenzen Wright, MEM
- Austin Croshere, IND (Jermaine didn't play)
- Shaquille O'Neal, MIA
- Kurt Thomas, PHO
- Chris Mihm, LAL

Are you telling me that Ike Diogu is incapable of taking it to Mark Blount, Chris Mihm, or Austin Croshere?? Honestly, Shaquille O'Neal was the ONLY challenge for Diogu during this stretch... and, still, Diogu's numbers weren't great. During Ike's starts, here's how he faired:

9.4 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 0.8 APG, 0.6 BPG, 0.1 SPG, and 1.2 T/OPG
Shooting 62% from the field and 83% from the line
In 24 MPG

That's pretty average looking, to me. The games were pretty much Ike's MO: if he shot well, he played a lot of minutes. When going 4/9 from the field, Ike would get pulled early.

But, honestly, how many players in this league CAN'T average 10 points and 5 rebounds in 25 minutes a game...?

32 wrote:Ike got 8 starts at center last year. Do you know who he was opposed by?

- Mark Blount, BOS
- Eric Dampier, DAL
- Stromile Swift, HOU (Yao was injured... and Mutumbo played 10 minutes)
- Lorenzen Wright, MEM
- Austin Croshere, IND (Jermaine didn't play)
- Shaquille O'Neal, MIA
- Kurt Thomas, PHO
- Chris Mihm, LAL

Are you telling me that Ike Diogu is incapable of taking it to Mark Blount, Chris Mihm, or Austin Croshere?? Honestly, Shaquille O'Neal was the ONLY challenge for Diogu during this stretch... and, still, Diogu's numbers weren't great. During Ike's starts, here's how he faired:

9.4 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 0.8 APG, 0.6 BPG, 0.1 SPG, and 1.2 T/OPG
Shooting 62% from the field and 83% from the line
In 24 MPG

That's pretty average looking, to me. The games were pretty much Ike's MO: if he shot well, he played a lot of minutes. When going 4/9 from the field, Ike would get pulled early.

But, honestly, how many players in this league CAN'T average 10 points and 5 rebounds in 25 minutes a game...?

c'mon, 32, Ike is not a center. I agree with TMC, a truly dumbass move by Monty. Ike is BARELY 6'8. He has no business at center, didn't even play there in college, where the players are 3-4 inches shorter on average. The only reason they put him there was cause they didn't want to bench Murphy because they were shopping Murphy at the time. And playing behind one of the best PF in the league and with Murphy sucking up minutes, he is in a situation where he is getting crumbs. Also, Diogu sympathizers? Damn, is that like communist sympathizers? I thought he was your fave warrior until the trade? Does that make you one? Fact remains he had pretty much the highest scoring per/48 and PER of any rookie in the league last year. I think the jury is out, and way too early to conclude that he is a bust. Remember that bust Chauncey Billups or that other bust Jermaine O'Neal? When Diogu gets consistent minutes at the 4, say 25 a game, then we can draw conclusions...Let me be clear. I was possibly the biggest Ike-booster around here, and I am thrilled we made the trade, cause Ike is the antithesis of a Nelly-style player and I think getting HarringJax for Dungleavy is a felony in 37 states...

coltraning wrote:I think getting HarringJax for Dungleavy is a felony in 37 states...

Yep, we were lucky Indiana is not one of those...

coltraning wrote:c'mon, 32, Ike is not a center. I agree with TMC, a truly dumbass move by Monty. Ike is BARELY 6'8. He has no business at center, didn't even play there in college, where the players are 3-4 inches shorter on average. The only reason they put him there was cause they didn't want to bench Murphy because they were shopping Murphy at the time. And playing behind one of the best PF in the league and with Murphy sucking up minutes, he is in a situation where he is getting crumbs.

The so-called "centers" that Ike played against held an average of 3.125 inches on Ike Diogu (meaning that their average height was 6'11"). The average NBA power forward is 6'10. This means that Ike was giving up ONE more inch than he usually would against his normal competition.

Claiming that Diogu was unfairly places against centers is not a valid claim when the only center who was dramatically bigger than Diogu was Shaquille O'Neal. Chris Mihm, Eric Dampier, and Shaquille O'Neal were the only centers anybody could consider 'dramatically bigger' than Ike Diogu... in fact, he outweighed every other starting center that he played against.

coltraning wrote:Also, Diogu sympathizers? Damn, is that like communist sympathizers?

colt, please. Does everything need to turn into a civil rights battle? Everytime somebody makes a general comment, it doesn't have to be a red herring or a "love it or leave it" Bush-voter thing. I understand that being a Republican is the worst possible thing, in your eyes (and mine, for that matter), but lets stay on topic here.

coltraning wrote:I thought he was your fave warrior until the trade? Does that make you one? Fact remains he had pretty much the highest scoring per/48 and PER of any rookie in the league last year. I think the jury is out, and way too early to conclude that he is a bust. Remember that bust Chauncey Billups or that other bust Jermaine O'Neal? When Diogu gets consistent minutes at the 4, say 25 a game, then we can draw conclusions...Let me be clear. I was possibly the biggest Ike-booster around here, and I am thrilled we made the trade, cause Ike is the antithesis of a Nelly-style player and I think getting HarringJax for Dungleavy is a felony in 37 states...

Diogu's minutes aren't the only things that fell off in Indiana; so have his percentages. Diogu's shooting a meager 41.1% as a Pacer (and that includes 5 nights of attempting 7 or more shots). Diogu's defense is not improving, his turnovers are only getting worse, and his rock-solid field-goal percentage is following suit.

To reitterate: I'm not saying Diogu WONT blow up, I'm saying that it's looking less and less likely to happen by the minute.

Ike may not be a center, but the guys he were matched up against when he was starting weren't exactly center material. I can understand The Diesel, but the others? Those guys are decent players, role players to say the least. So what if he was an undersized rookie PF playing center? If he couldn't put up at least Murphy's numbers then what the hell are you going to expect?

And besides, no disrespect colt, but I do remember you as a Diogu supporter doggin' on this board for Nellie to play Ike when it was clear, he was not a fit for this system.

32 wrote:

JayPat wrote:

32 wrote:And, suddenly, Montgomery's not looking as crazy as everybody thought...

Don't get any ideas...

You won't find any Monty support from me. I thought a tree stump could coach the team better. And, it's clear, from the breakout seasons Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins are having, that he clearly mismanaged the team.

That being said, we were all extremely hard on him for not playing Ike Diogu... and, in the end, Rick Carlise and Don Nelson are both in agreement that Diogu has some major issues to solve before he becomes any sort of role player for any team. Add in Diogu's inability to learn anything (at least, thus far in his career) and you've got a kid oozing with potential who may turn into nothing.

You'll hear the repeated argument from Diogu sympathizers that all he needs is minutes... but Montgomery gave Diogu a shot, if you recall, during last January. Diogu became the starting center for a short period of time... and not even increased minutes helped the big guy get any better. Add in the fact that Don Nelson was giving him nearly 15 minutes a night as a Warrior and, well, the evidence is pretty conclusive.

But, don't get it twisted. During his short stint as a Warrior, Diogu was my favorite player (and I hated Montgomery with a bloody passion).

OK, cause no one with a working brain would defend Montgomery, and I agree that Diogu was/is flawed, but he's not our problem now. If he turns out a bust, then good for us for getting him off our hands. Plus picking up Jax/Harrington.

Exactly.

My whole point is that during his rookie campaign, most of us would have guessed Ike had a 75% chance (or better) of becoming something big.

Now, after not improving at all since his first game and struggling in TWO lineups that are as different as night and day, Ike's chances look lower... like 20% or 25%, if he's lucky.

32 wrote:Exactly.

My whole point is that during his rookie campaign, most of us would have guessed Ike had a 75% chance (or better) of becoming something big.

Now, after not improving at all since his first game and struggling in TWO lineups that are as different as night and day, Ike's chances look lower... like 20% or 25%, if he's lucky.

Yeah, and it's humorous that idiots like Hollinger say this will be the "Ike Diogu trade" (like he'll blow up and become a superstar, and we'll all regret it).

You are too quick to judge him. He still hasn't had a real chance. Give him 10 games at PF playing 25 min at least and we can talk. Until then, it's the coaches fault.

I thought it was a great trade at the time (just found this board, so I wasn't around to post on it) and I think it's even better. My thinking was (and is) that EVEN IF Diogu becomes a star it could be a good trade.

The W's got cap room, and can sign an impact free agent next year. If Jackson and Harrington (and Powell, who I figured was just a throwin who wouldn't do anything) can continue to play like they have been, the Ws can make the playoffs this year. Even if they don't make it, the team is getting good experience playing meaningful games in March and April, which will help them next year. And I just cannot believe, even in my wildest imagination, that the team would be where it is now with Murphy, Dunleavy and Diogu.

I expected Harrington ton contribute, but Jackson has been far better than I expected.

TMC wrote:You are too quick to judge him. He still hasn't had a real chance. Give him 10 games at PF playing 25 min at least and we can talk. Until then, it's the coaches fault.

That's escapist mentality. Ike Diogu has had plenty of big minute nights, on two different squads, for three different coaches, in two different systems, playing against 30 different types of competition... and he's still not anything more than backup worthy.

I've admitted that I'm not letting the idea of Ike Diogu becoming something huge totally evaporate... but you and coltraning need to at least admit that Diogu becoming a star is seeming less and less likely by the game.

The kid's sporadic and doesn't learn anything. And before Diogu makes it big, he needs to fine tune his defense (both man-to-man and help), learn how to pass out of multiple coverage, and figure out where to be without the ball.

How can someone improve when they can't learn? Name one thing Diogu does NOW that he didn't do when he first came into the league.

32 wrote:How can someone improve when they can't learn?

How can he improve when he can't play?. I do believe that the fastest way to improve is by playing the game. Just by watching games riding the pine will do nothing for his development. Look at Biedrins. He played even less than Ike his first two years and now is a contender for Most Improved Player. In the first year he got consistent playing time.

Ike still hasn't had a fair chance to show what he can do in a team that fits him. Here he was a terrible fit for Nellie, which made it a worthy trade (it would be moronic to say otherwise). I still agree he hasn't show much improvement over his rookie season (even tho I believe he has become a slightly better rebounder), but what's undeniable is that any time he plays, he produces. Just look at his game last night against Atlanta: 15 points and 4 boards in 19 minutes (and 5 fouls, of course... but that's something he can only fix by playing).

As I said before, he can be labeled as a tough sell for certain coaches (and teams) but that doesn't change the potential he has. But Indy will have to trade Jermaine or him to happen. Both of them can't co-exists (because as long as Jermaine stays a Pacer, there's no way Ike gets more than 10-15 min per game).

TMC wrote:

32 wrote:You'll hear the repeated argument from Diogu sympathizers that all he needs is minutes... but Montgomery gave Diogu a shot, if you recall, during last January. Diogu became the starting center for a short period of time... and not even increased minutes helped the big guy get any better. Add in the fact that Don Nelson was giving him nearly 15 minutes a night as a Warrior and, well, the evidence is pretty conclusive.

Come on, playing Ike at Center was retarded. One of the dumbest moves during Monty's tenure. It was destined to be a disaster.

I agree that Ike is not ready for starter minutes, but Carlisle barely plays any young guys (with Granger the sole exception, but look at other young players like Harrison or Shawnee Williams...) and Ike never fitted Nellie's style.

I still think he can make it big. He just needs a coach that can use his game and a team in which he'll be able to get minutes (which won't happen in Indy as long as Jermaine stays there). He's a tough sell, if you want, but by no means a bad player.

This season, with the Warriors, Diogu was incredible in the minutes he played! At the end there, he was close to a point a minute and was getting the rebounds as well. Had he ever gotten Murphy like minutes last season, he could have become more comfortable and more consistent

TMC wrote:

32 wrote:How can someone improve when they can't learn?

How can he improve when he can't play?. I do believe that the fastest way to improve is by playing the game. Just by watching games riding the pine will do nothing for his development. Look at Biedrins. He played even less than Ike his first two years and now is a contender for Most Improved Player. In the first year he got consistent playing time.

Ike still hasn't had a fair chance to show what he can do in a team that fits him. Here he was a terrible fit for Nellie, which made it a worthy trade (it would be moronic to say otherwise). I still agree he hasn't show much improvement over his rookie season (even tho I believe he has become a slightly better rebounder), but what's undeniable is that any time he plays, he produces. Just look at his game last night against Atlanta: 15 points and 4 boards in 19 minutes (and 5 fouls, of course... but that's something he can only fix by playing).

As I said before, he can be labeled as a tough sell for certain coaches (and teams) but that doesn't change the potential he has. But Indy will have to trade Jermaine or him to happen. Both of them can't co-exists (because as long as Jermaine stays a Pacer, there's no way Ike gets more than 10-15 min per game).

Well, your theory will be tested soon enough.

The Pacers are grooming Ike Diogu to be Jermaine O'Neal's successor... so, in the wake of a JO trade (which may happen as early as this summer), Ike will grab the starting PF spot (with Murphy probably sliding up to center).