GoldenSTWarriors

[Blackfoot]

Alex makes far less mistakes than Palmer - even in his losing seasons. Actually, Palmer has only had a couple of good seasons and everyone wants to act like he is a top 10 QB, while Alex gets bashed because he put up good numbers after (and before, but nobody cares to check the stats) he had a decent coaching staff and good team around him. It works both ways. There is a double standard here.

Smith is also much more of a team first guy, which has been proven on multiple occasions - taking pay cuts, resigning with an organizations whose fans threw him under the bus, not only being quiet about losing his job in the manner that he did, but being a huge resource and asset to Kaep's progression. On the other hand you have Palmer who is older, costs much more and he has proven multiple times that he is a ME first guy - I don't need to provide instances of this as Raider fans are quickly becoming indoctrinated in the ways of a selfish, overrated Palmer.

So yeah, even if Palmer was better than Smith, a team would be far better off with a guy like Smith as their QB. Especially considering that neither guy is a long term solution at QB (certainly not Palmer at 33) and whatever team has these guys are going to be looking for their QB of the future. Do you see Palmer coexisting with his eventual replacement? Let alone, aiding in his progression? lol, maybe it's not his fault for having the misfortune of playing for two of the least reputable front offices in the league and he's just saying "FU, pay me my guaranteed $$$ and then I'm out." If the Raider cut him, they're still on the hook for a lot.

I don't think the Chiefs made a good deal, but not for the same reasons that most think this way. I think that the disparity of value placed on QBs and other players is too much. We all know QBs are that important, but the league has gotten out of control with hoisting these guys up on their massive contracts. The question is, are any on the not top 5 QBs worth that kind of compensation? A starting caliber QB in this league is outrageously overvalued, particularly when you consider the success that these young guys are having. Was Joe Flacco worth the massive contract he was give? More importantly, is he worth reducing your SB winning team to what it is now over one guy? Is Joe ****ing Flacco worth 16.2% of your salary cap or is Peyton Manning worth 14.6%!?! You still have 52 other guys to take care of! I guess in this, "win now, worry about the rest later" league they are as coaches, GMs, etc are faced with unexpected and potentially, immediate dismissal.

Still the Chiefs made a far better deal than the Raiders did as they got a starting QB that makes less mistakes, that is 5-6 years younger, cheaper, more of a team player and will be there to help the team transition into there next QB when the time comes. Plus they gave up far less. Oh and he'll actually be on the roster - no getting those 1st rounders back now.


You're right, Cam's turnovers are a bit of a misconception, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he had a very low turnover rate, actually his fumbles (10) put him in the top (bottom?) five among all QBs which is pretty bad, but that's forgiven being a young mobile QB (Kaep was actually worse with 9, but 2 of those came from plays when he wasn't even the QB), his Int % pretty mediocre (2.5%) placing him around the middle of the pack.

His TOs aren't really the problem, actually I don't think he has many problems asides from being labeled a somewhat of an ineffective leader and student of the game. Perhaps it's the impossible comparisons with the younger (drafted in the past 2 seasons) QBs that are out performing him - Luck, RG3 (for entirely different reasons), Kaep, Wilson and Dalton. Not saying they are better (although I believe they are with the exception of RG3), but they are out performing him.

I actually like Cam a lot, I think he is an exciting young talent and I love watching him play. But I feel like I speak for all NFL fans when I say, "Dude Cam, STFU!!!" When you start pissing off veteran, all-pro guys like Steve Smith, then you've crossed a line and time to file back in and earn the right to speak out. Guys like Brady and Manning can say whatever the f*ck they want, whenever the f*ck they want, to whoever the f*ck they want because they have earned that right. Their teammates don't call them superman, they call them sir. When you've attained even a fraction of that respect, then you can feel partially entitled to throw your team under the bus, but until then... just STFU. Maybe that's why the myth exists... nobody likes a sore loser and an asshole that celebrates as much as he does on a losing team. You can be one or the other, but not both.

There is a reason why the Niners were very interested in Palmer the first season Harbaugh got there and why Smith got benched with in Kaep's first real game. Alex Smith can't go deep (13.2 percent of the time) and the Niners were winning because of the defense and a heavy running game with short passes. Smith didn't make mistakes because the system he was placed in didn't allow you to make mistakes. Palmer would absolutely strive in the Niners roster. Kaepernick got a lot more freedom with the playbook and for good reason. Harbaugh trusted Kaep and not Smith.

I am going to go ahead and say Smith is probably one of the most overrated QB's going into the year. There are equal QB's on the market for pennies. Like Matt Moore and Jason Campbell. I feel like the Niners demonstrated why they are an upper echelon front office with this move and why they will contend consistently.

lol I don't see the point in saying the Raiders deal was awful. I know it was awful.

http://boards.bengals.com/showthread.php?t=87161 - Kind of a source that the Niners were trying to trade for Palmer while he was with the Bengals?

I don't see where this "opened playbook" thing is coming from. It was pretty much the same, only that it was modified, pistol, for Kaep. Routes, runs, etc. were pretty much the same. They just called more deep balls (and option part obviously)...and you can neglect the other side as much as you want, but Kaep short to intermediate passes are worse than Alex's. So, you are saying that any QB put in the Harbaugh's system would be great, 70% passer...? I'd love to see Matt Moore in there, and would be glad to put money on it that he wouldn't be even close to what Alex did. And I like Moore.

Alex can't be overrated, quite the opposite. Nobody is giving him any credit, and yet the team was winning with him, plus he had great numbers, which is your mojo. And with Alex it was defense, and with Kaep it's all on him? Come on, man, you're better than that.

You went from Kaep to Palmer, and all the way to Jason ****ing Campbell. If that is not dissing someone for no reason, and no evidence, but only your opinion, I don't know what is. Palmer wouldn't strive anywhere anymore. He's pretty much washed up, no will to play the game, and ego guy.

And you are, once again, looking too much into deep balls, Alex is throwing them enough for the teams to step back. Granted he's not gonna air it out, but that's not needed. Kaep has his limitation, like shorter passes where he tries to kill the receiver. I read an article where it says that Crabs was saying that him and other guys are lining up to be fourth receiver in training, if Kaep's throwing to number 3. They wanted to avoid those hits in training to their hands. He lacks touch on the ball.

I'm not saying that Smith is better, just that they are up there. Which is what coaches think, unlike fans. Far away from Smith being in category with backup QBs you named.

[Blackfoot]

The fact he threw it deep 17 percent more times made me think they opened up the playbook.

Alex gets way too much credit. I saw people calling him elite in the middle of the year and "if the niners get to the superbowl you have to put alex smith in your top five or at least top eight QB's." Winning makes QB's overrated.


Palmer is fine, I watched him all season. It's play calling (70 percent passing, 30 percent running, biggest discrepancy in NFL history) and sorry teammates. He put up decent/serviceable numbers in a horrible offensive system that was the most predictable in NFL history, statistically speaking.

I think Smith is as good as those back ups that I mentioned. At the point of it being a wash, honestly.

He had to, because short passes didn't work as much as they did because of what I said before. He just had to air it out more and take a chance, either that or his legs. Nothing to do with the playbook. The fact that Alex was still teaching him should tell you something about that. Heck, he couldn't change a play on the line, something Alex is great at, reading defenses...more plays would just add to that problem.

I must say that I haven't read comments like that about Alex. Even if it were written, it's a couple of fanatics, or it was a joke. Stat wise, Alex was at the top though, and he was winning, so you have it both ways. Also, Kaep is winning just as same, does that make him overrated?

Now you are defending Palmer for bad teammates, coaches, plays...etc, yet, that is something you would take away from Alex. It was all his fault. And when he got some decent players to play with, good offensive minded coach, then it is all them, and nothing to do with him. That's textbook double standard.

Well, I don't know what to tell you on that last one. If you based that on nothing tangible (cause Moore and Campbell haven't done jack **** lately, nor before really), then it is easy to see how underrated Alex is.

I guess there is no point in further discussion, we can go back and forth for ages. We will have to wait for the season to start.

[PAWNO]

Come on guy brush

Give it a break. Everyone knows how horrible Alex Smoth was until Harbaugh came along.

The only consolidation ill give you is that I find it very interesting Andy Reid swung a deal for him? Reid has had a lot of luck with QB so who knows.

I hope Palmer gets cut and goes to the Cardinals. That would make the NFC West very exciting. Fitzgerald might even return to the no1 fantasy WR in front of Megatron & Seattle n SF couldn't bank on those 2 divisional games each season against AZ.

[PAWNO]

PS apologies GUYbrush for saying give it a break. Just saw your comment about no need for further discussion. Lol

But apparently not everyone know why it was like that. Though, I guess it's easier to put a label on someone, than put some thought into it. Especially if that isn't your team. So, I can understand that.

Why would you want to see Palmer cut, if he's gonna turn around Cardinals all by himself?

It's ok Pawno, no hard feelings. I assume this debate is gonna continue during the season. Those Alex Smith threads are always hot, that's something everyone can agree on. lol

[PAWNO]

I want Palmer gone from a salary cap perspective. He us only going to give us 5 or 6 wins, why not save some money strengthen other parts of our team and roll with Pryor who is good for 4 wins at least.

If he takes a paycut then he can stay.

I know the discussion is dying, but my last sentiment(s) is - Kaep threw deep more than any other QB in the league... The offense completely changed with him under center. Again, it doesn't make sense comparing Alex to Kaep, they might as well not even play the same position.

The fact that Smith commits so few mistakes in comparison to pretty much every other QB in the league is way undervalued. In this era when so many teams can light up a score board and defenses are being neutered, what is a more effective way of winning games? Getting into a shootout where a single play or bad call can cost you the game? Or playing ball control (that mythical thing that every last HC wishes they could do) by not turning the ball over, moving the chains and chewing up the clock? I personally like to control my own fate, and as long as the other team can't score if they don't touch the ball (outside a safety), then I'd say that's my brand of football. If you told me that Kaep would throw 5 more INTs than he did last season, he'd still have a good stat line, but I'd be chillin in my tent in camp Alex.

Is Palmer an overall more talented QB than Alex? I believe so. Does he give you a better chance to win games? No, because the insanely small amount of mistakes that Alex makes, comparatively, offsets Palmer's production in yards and TDs. Who is the better option for a team at this point in their careers? Alex, because he is a team player, costs less, younger, won't lose games (Palmer most definitely will lose you games) and IMO, Palmer isn't that much more talented.

With that said, I really hope Palmer stays with the Raider because he'd certainly be a step up from the scrubs that the Cards have, but he won't be enough. The Cards are bad in so many areas, they got off to a good start last season, but without a couple early wins that would have been loses later in the season, they would have been serious contenders for that No. 1 pick. Although Kolb was playing decent for a while, I'd think he'd more attractive than Palmer due to his age.

@Guy, you're right, it's crazy how quickly these Alex Smith discussions/debates evolve. They always do - look back in this thread and even the Raider thread - it's been argued almost as much as Monta in the main board. Who would have thought when he was drafted that Alex would be such a polarizing figure and divide the interwebs down the middle.

[Blackfoot]

It's okay to make interceptions as long as you are producing more points than costing points. Besides, I am sure Palmer would strive in the Niners situation, far more so than Alex. Remember, Raiders last year had the most passing play calls to running play calls in the history of the NFL. That's not Palmer's fault. Imagine him leaving that situation to a Harbaugh ran situation.

And I want to cut or trade Palmer. I'd like for him to go the Jets because that's the best chance he has to win and Mark Sanchez was the worst QB in the league last year, so assuming production remains similar in every other spot they are easily an 8-8 or 9-7 team with Palmer.

Palmer on the Cardinals? That sounds like suicide with their O-line and the Seahawks/Niners defense.

But what if your D isn't very good and are giving up 17-21 / game and you are kicking in a couple extra scores? What if you D is good and you are playing against another good D? You'd have to be a damn good QB to overcome enough deficits like that on a weekly basis to reach a respectable record... Also there are the immeasurable negative impacts that TOs have on a team that are very real and cannot be discredited. Moral, Momentum, what about sending your D back out on the field after a long drive by the other team and a quick TO by your offense? Dude I played every position on the defensive side of the ball and I can tell you that sh*t sucks - getting worn out chancing guys around for a long drive and then having to go back out a do it again not even a few plays later.

Rams D is getting good quickly too. There is a lot of speed accumulating on that side of the ball in St. Louis.

Maybe you're right about Palmer > Smith, but don't forget that Palmer could turn into a pick machine in Cincy even when they had one of the league's best ground games. One thing I'm positive of is that Kaep is going to help the 9ers far more than either Alex or Palmer ever could. Once he gets some more experience and crafts his QB skills, we could be looking at the top player at the position. I'd honestly be this high on the guy even if he couldn't run the ball at all, as he already looks to be better as a pure passer and decision maker than any of the other young QBs I can think of, with the exception of Dalton and maybe Luck (again those picks! and some of those awful decisions!). I'm not discrediting Wilson though. He scares me as a 9er fan because of how easy the game came to him.

The problem with Wilson is going to be the same issues that have plagued guys like Vick and RG3 already - injury - and it doesn't have nearly as much to do with his tendency to run as it does with his size. I know the size thing is much debated and I heard his comical dismissal of the importance of height - blah blah - but it's a big man's game and small guys get hurt and hurt bad.

[Blackfoot]

Sure, I think Kaep is better than Palmer at this point.

I don't think Kaep will ever get to top three like Palmer was, but Kaep over Palmer 9/10 times for next season and every season they are both in the league.

[PAWNO]

Thoughts????

is Kaepernick overrated?

is Kaepernick overrated?

If I say something, I might get stoned ...I stated my opinion during the last season, and how pistol might not be all that this year as well.