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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:33 am
we have to agree on a definition for dominant. For the purposes of this thread, it means someone clearly miles ahead of anyone else playing at the time. That's why I couldn't put Montana in there, since Marino and Elway were his contemporaries and roughly at his skill level. Was Wilt remotely at the skill level of Jordan (or about 100 other players since the 60s)? No...but the gap between his production and everyone else in the league was unmatched before or since. Sacrilegious as it may be to say, Babe Ruth may not have been the best home run hitter ever. I believe if we transported 'ol HGH Bonds back to that era, he probably would have hit 100 HRs at least in a season, but no one has EVER dominated a team sport the way Babe did the year he hit 54 home runs, more than any other TEAM! That's what I mean by dominant...best ever? still MJ...MDE, Wilt...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:09 am
Fair enough then, further ahead than the rest of the nba it is. It would be Wilt then
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:26 am
coltraning wrote:we have to agree on a definition for dominant. For the purposes of this thread, it means someone clearly miles ahead of anyone else playing at the time. That's why I couldn't put Montana in there, since Marino and Elway were his contemporaries and roughly at his skill level. Was Wilt remotely at the skill level of Jordan (or about 100 other players since the 60s)? No...but the gap between his production and everyone else in the league was unmatched before or since.


I agree about Montana. In fact, I don't think he was better than Marino. Too close to call, in fact, but I wonder what Marino would have done with Jerry Rice in his team.

Also, I don't think how dominant a player was should be decided by stats. Wilt had a rival in Bill Russell. Jordan didn't have any rival.

Wilt has 2 NBA titles, Jordan has 6 in an era in which winning a title was much more difficult. That's should be enough to label MJ as the most dominant player. And being dominant being a guard is much more difficult than being a center.

You can make a case for Wilt based on numbers alone, but when you look at their accomplishments, it's not even close.

btw, I hated Jordan when he played. Well, not him, but the fact that he always won. It made the league boring to me (even tho the way he played was awe-inspiring at times), so I was always rooting against him. Every single game.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:34 am
TMC wrote:btw, I hated Jordan when he played. Well, not him, but the fact that he always won. It made the league boring to me (even tho the way he played was awe-inspiring at times), so I was always rooting against him. Every single game.




I was never a Bulls fan and was a Blazers fan, almost as much as I was a Warriors fan many years ago (haven't really been for years) and the fact that they passed on Jordan for Sam Bowie was a disgrace!

Bulls always won as well and that did make things rough but I say the truth and that it is that the Bulls were a great team, the second threepeat team being the best team ever, and Jordan is the greatest player ever!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:39 am
migya wrote:Bulls always won as well and that did make things rough but I say the truth and that it is that the Bulls were a great team, the second threepeat team being the best team ever, and Jordan is the greatest player ever!


What made it even more amazing was the fact that those Bulls' teams weren't exactly loaded. He had Pippen, Rodman, Horace Grant, Ron Harper, Kukoc... and a few, very limited, role players. And not all of them at the same time. That's a proof of how great he was.

Blazers, uh?. What happens with the Pacific?. My second team are the Sonics, yours are the Blazers, Colt's are the Suns... Guess we're not much of east coast guys.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:05 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:Bulls always won as well and that did make things rough but I say the truth and that it is that the Bulls were a great team, the second threepeat team being the best team ever, and Jordan is the greatest player ever!


What made it even more amazing was the fact that those Bulls' teams weren't exactly loaded. He had Pippen, Rodman, Horace Grant, Ron Harper, Kukoc... and a few, very limited, role players. And not all of them at the same time. That's a proof of how great he was.


I actually think the second threepeat team had a fair bit of talent - Pippen was better than he was in the first threepeat team, Rodman was the best at what he did, Kukoc was one of the best shooters in the nba, Harper became a great defender and role player, Longley was better than any Center Jordan ever had on the Bulls and role players like Caffey, Randy Brown, Wennington, Buechler and Kerr (one of the best three point shooter ever) were very good at their roles. It was inevitable that that team was going to break records


TMC wrote:Blazers, uh?. What happens with the Pacific?. My second team are the Sonics, yours are the Blazers, Colt's are the Suns... Guess we're not much of east coast guys.


I'm not much of a Blazers fan now so I couldn't care less. The Suns are my second favourite team in the Pacific division
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:13 am
migya wrote:I actually think the second threepeat team had a fair bit of talent - Pippen was better than he was in the first threepeat team, Rodman was the best at what he did, Kukoc was one of the best shooters in the nba, Harper became a great defender and role player, Longley was better than any Center Jordan ever had on the Bulls and role players like Caffey, Randy Brown, Wennington, Buechler and Kerr (one of the best three point shooter ever) were very good at their roles. It was inevitable that that team was going to break records


Yeah, the second was definately better (although Bill Cartwright was a much better center than Longley. Luc was just lucky to be in the right team at the right time). In any case, that team wouldn't have gone past the first round without MJ.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:31 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:I actually think the second threepeat team had a fair bit of talent - Pippen was better than he was in the first threepeat team, Rodman was the best at what he did, Kukoc was one of the best shooters in the nba, Harper became a great defender and role player, Longley was better than any Center Jordan ever had on the Bulls and role players like Caffey, Randy Brown, Wennington, Buechler and Kerr (one of the best three point shooter ever) were very good at their roles. It was inevitable that that team was going to break records


Yeah, the second was definately better (although Bill Cartwright was a much better center than Longley. Luc was just lucky to be in the right team at the right time). In any case, that team wouldn't have gone past the first round without MJ.



The Cartwright that played in the first threepeat Bulls team was not as good as Longley was in the second threepeat team! Longley was a better shotblocker, passer, scorer and probably rebounder as well. Cartwright was an old unco lug when the Bulls were winning championships
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:04 am
migya wrote:The Cartwright that played in the first threepeat Bulls team was not as good as Longley was in the second threepeat team! Longley was a better shotblocker, passer, scorer and probably rebounder as well. Cartwright was an old unco lug when the Bulls were winning championships


Well, stats don't tell exactly that. Longley was just along for the ride. At least, that's what I call a starter that never averages 10 ppg or 6 boards... Not that Cartwright was much better, but I'd put him a bit over Luc. More attitude and experience, at least.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:39 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:The Cartwright that played in the first threepeat Bulls team was not as good as Longley was in the second threepeat team! Longley was a better shotblocker, passer, scorer and probably rebounder as well. Cartwright was an old unco lug when the Bulls were winning championships


Well, stats don't tell exactly that. Longley was just along for the ride. At least, that's what I call a starter that never averages 10 ppg or 6 boards... Not that Cartwright was much better, but I'd put him a bit over Luc. More attitude and experience, at least.



If you'd watched them play you'd realise that Longley did alot of his scoring early and then deferred to his teammates alot. He was a good defender and played his role very well
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:47 am
migya wrote:If you'd watched them play you'd realise that Longley did alot of his scoring early and then deferred to his teammates alot. He was a good defender and played his role very well


Yeah, but we saw later the real Longley in Phoenix and NY (and had seen him before in Minny). He was just lucky to be part of that team.

Also, other than his blocks, he wasn't a good defender. Too slow for anything else.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:00 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:If you'd watched them play you'd realise that Longley did alot of his scoring early and then deferred to his teammates alot. He was a good defender and played his role very well


Yeah, but we saw later the real Longley in Phoenix and NY (and had seen him before in Minny). He was just lucky to be part of that team.

Also, other than his blocks, he wasn't a good defender. Too slow for anything else.




But on the championship Bulls teams he was better than Cartwright
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:02 am
migya wrote:
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:If you'd watched them play you'd realise that Longley did alot of his scoring early and then deferred to his teammates alot. He was a good defender and played his role very well


Yeah, but we saw later the real Longley in Phoenix and NY (and had seen him before in Minny). He was just lucky to be part of that team.

Also, other than his blocks, he wasn't a good defender. Too slow for anything else.




But on the championship Bulls teams he was better than Cartwright


Ok, both were big, stinking turds. It's a tie. Happy now? :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:13 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:If you'd watched them play you'd realise that Longley did alot of his scoring early and then deferred to his teammates alot. He was a good defender and played his role very well


Yeah, but we saw later the real Longley in Phoenix and NY (and had seen him before in Minny). He was just lucky to be part of that team.

Also, other than his blocks, he wasn't a good defender. Too slow for anything else.




But on the championship Bulls teams he was better than Cartwright


Ok, both were big, stinking turds. It's a tie. Happy now? :mrgreen:



Careful now, you might be mistaken for being racist against Cartwright and thus black people :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:26 am
migya wrote:
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:If you'd watched them play you'd realise that Longley did alot of his scoring early and then deferred to his teammates alot. He was a good defender and played his role very well


Yeah, but we saw later the real Longley in Phoenix and NY (and had seen him before in Minny). He was just lucky to be part of that team.

Also, other than his blocks, he wasn't a good defender. Too slow for anything else.




But on the championship Bulls teams he was better than Cartwright


Ok, both were big, stinking turds. It's a tie. Happy now? :mrgreen:



Careful now, you might be mistaken for being racist against Cartwright and thus black people :mrgreen:


Hey, I was talking about Longley too. Stop tampering with my words! :mrgreen:
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