I dunno, I've seen some highlight reels where Stockton dropped some nasty dimes.

But I guess what I'm trying to say is that people have done the behind the back pass and other creative passes before Nash. Maybe they didn't do it as often or as smoothly but the idea is there. With Dr. J all the twists and turns that he did in the air weren't being done before he did them.

The most innovative thing Nash does is drive in and run circles around the D - but Archibald did that too. Someone like Jason Williams is more innovative than Nash, but of course nowhere near as good a player.

I guess it is more of a question on how do you define innovation than anything else.

I agree with you, I was just trying to see the other side

It's sort of like how Larry legend is on anybody's (except our draft ) top five all time list, yet he was by no stretch of the imagination an innovator, just very good at basketball.

Thunder wrote:I dunno, I've seen some highlight reels where Stockton dropped some nasty dimes.

But I guess what I'm trying to say is that people have done the behind the back pass and other creative passes before Nash. Maybe they didn't do it as often or as smoothly but the idea is there. With Dr. J all the twists and turns that he did in the air weren't being done before he did them.

The most innovative thing Nash does is drive in and run circles around the D - but Archibald did that too. Someone like Jason Williams is more innovative than Nash, but of course nowhere near as good a player.

I guess it is more of a question on how do you define innovation than anything else.

I think it is Nash's movement that is different. It is more like a soccer player's. That is new among point guards. Mark Jackson was a total workmanlike point guard, no dash, no creativity, just solid and dependable, so I don't see him being in the conversation. Stockton also moved and penetrated in a very traditional, straight line kind of way, as opposed to Nash's elliptical routes. What astounds me is his ability to create, penetrate and distribute in 1/2 court sets. He makes them feel like fast breaks - amazing. I have been watching bball a long time, and have never seen that before. Next to Magic, Nash is the most consistently creative point guard I have ever seen.

I suppose you are right, with regards to his movement. Nobody else really moves the way he does. I guess it is a very nuanced form of innovation, but innovation nevertheless.

And yeah, I can't believe Bird wasn't top 5 either.

TMC wrote:

coltraning wrote:How about Nash - I see him as an innovator in how he moves and distributes, and I would submit that he is playing point guard as well these past 3 years as anyone ever has played the position.

But he didn't look like that in Dallas, so D'Antoni deserves some props, too. Seems like the system is perfect for him.

I'm not saying that Nash is not the catalyst of Phoenix bbal, quite the oppositel... but he certainly didn't play like this as a Mav. Just food for thought, I guess.

I think Nash just saw the Suns as a young team where he would be the veteran and the team would be him without any major names and icons like Nelson and Nowitzki. He is far more aggressive and in control of the Suns than what he was in the Mavs, where Dirk and Finley got isolation plays alot. Nash is just more valuable to the Suns than he was in the Mavs and he was very valuable to the Mavs

The difference is that Nash did creative passes to everybody, stockton pick and rolled fifty times a game for his assists

True some of Nash's assists come from so called creative passes but he too runs the pick and roll I would say over 50 % of the time (at least he did 2 years back with amare at full strength I havent seen the suns enough this year to say that). And he has arguably the best finisher in the league (or a close second to D-howard) in amare.

Dubs4life wrote:True some of Nash's assists come from so called creative passes but he too runs the pick and roll I would say over 50 % of the time (at least he did 2 years back with amare at full strength I havent seen the suns enough this year to say that). And he has arguably the best finisher in the league (or a close second to D-howard) in amare.

And he plays close to no defense... that's a big reason why I wouldn't pick Nash above Stockton or Thomas.

TMC wrote:

Dubs4life wrote:True some of Nash's assists come from so called creative passes but he too runs the pick and roll I would say over 50 % of the time (at least he did 2 years back with amare at full strength I havent seen the suns enough this year to say that). And he has arguably the best finisher in the league (or a close second to D-howard) in amare.

And he plays close to no defense... that's a big reason why I wouldn't pick Nash above Stockton or Thomas.

That is a huge reason! Nash really has to improve his defense if he wants to be known as an real superstar and alltime great because greats like Jordan, Olajuwon even Bird and Magic, played very good defense

Dubs4life wrote:

The difference is that Nash did creative passes to everybody, stockton pick and rolled fifty times a game for his assists

True some of Nash's assists come from so called creative passes but he too runs the pick and roll I would say over 50 % of the time (at least he did 2 years back with amare at full strength I havent seen the suns enough this year to say that). And he has arguably the best finisher in the league (or a close second to D-howard) in amare.

wherever Nash goes, he makes his teammates better, and this year, amazing as it seems, Amare is just one of the factors on the Suns, they are ridiculously loaded. Nash won 2 MVPs in a row and is a strong contender for a 3rd, so he is a first ballot lock for the hall of fame. I think that would define him as an all-time superstar.