Tmac to retire once his 3-year contract expires

Talk about any other sports here.

Moderators: Mr. Crackerz, JREED, Guybrush, hobbes

User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3086
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:51 pm
Location: Redwood City, CA
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:11 pm
Tony Parker? Overrated.
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 2558
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:53 am
Location: where you aren't
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:49 pm
#32 wrote:Also, when did I call Yao a "Chinaman"? If I did, it doesn't matter (because thats what he is... you can't get made at me for calling him a Chinaman, thats like migya getting angry if I called him an Australian).

You called him a chinaman in a the "Good old days" thread (I first noticed it this time when I was looking for exactly what you said about certain players). Chinaman has always been a degrading term towards chinese people.

It seems to have been a difference of definitions. now for my opinion of some of those A-List stars:

Paul Pierce - Tracy McGrady's doppelganger. Both have had careers on bad teams, and do a little bit of everything, though pierce is showing another dimension of his game this year
Vince Carter - I don't see how you can call tmac a ballhog and VC not a ballhog. VC has had equal or better teammates and still manages to shoot more yet pass and rebound less than Tmac.
Michael Redd - Michael Redd is a one dimensional shooter. Tmac is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender than him.
Tony Parker - Once again, T-mac is better at every single facet of the game than this "point guard"

There are several more I would take (healthy) tmac over, but these are the most glaring ones.
ImageImage
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13531
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:12 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:You called him a chinaman in a the "Good old days" thread (I first noticed it this time when I was looking for exactly what you said about certain players). Chinaman has always been a degrading term towards chinese people.

I didn't think so. The term is used freely in many of my classes and none of the Asian-American students seem to care. I didn't mean anything degrading by it; I was simply using it as a colorful term to describe it. Not really an issue unless you make it one.

Now, lets address your comments on the players:

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Paul Pierce - Tracy McGrady's doppelganger. Both have had careers on bad teams, and do a little bit of everything, though pierce is showing another dimension of his game this year

Paul Pierce is far from simply McGrady's doppelganger. First of all, Pierce is a much better rebounder than McGrady (he lacks 2 inches on Tracy, but still gathers more RPG between their careers). He's also a far better defender than McGrady (even hitting 2.1 SPG one season, something McGrady's never come close to). Most of their differences can't be found on a stat sheet, but they are extremely obvious when you see them play.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Vince Carter - I don't see how you can call tmac a ballhog and VC not a ballhog. VC has had equal or better teammates and still manages to shoot more yet pass and rebound less than Tmac.

You are correct, on this one. I meant to put Carter in the missed-cut category, under the same terms as Richardson (he's only a scorer). My mistake; you found a typo.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Michael Redd - Michael Redd is a one dimensional shooter. Tmac is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender than him.

Michael Redd is also a phenominal defender. In fact, his shooting was virtually unknown when he was drafted; he came into the league as a defensive stand-out. Redd is a Bruce Bowen type; the kind of guy who won't impress Fantasy owners on the defensive end, but still gets the job done. Thats the reason I included him (I pretty much knew somebody would ask why). Because he's an offensive-defensive threat.

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:Tony Parker - Once again, T-mac is better at every single facet of the game than this "point guard"

Except, of course, shooting percentage and assists. McGrady (since leaving the bench of Toronto) averages 39.01 MPG on his career. Tony Parker averages 33.12. Disregarding the huge gap in minutes, Parker still manages to dish out 5.4 APG on his career (which is 7.8 per 48 minutes... not bad for a point guard who also shoots 48% from the field).
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 3086
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:51 pm
Location: Redwood City, CA
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:36 pm
Parker still doesn't deserve "A list" star though. Michael Redd is borderline, Pierce def. A list. Definitely going to be disagreements from people cause that always happens when you make an opionated list. But I think it's well thought out. Good job.
User avatar
All Star
Posts: 2558
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:53 am
Location: where you aren't
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:45 pm
I won't argue on paul pierce, because that's just aesthetic preference

As for Michael Redd, he is incredible inconsistent on the defensive end. There are some years when he's a good defender, other years where he's an ABYSMAL defender, other years where he's just average. On years when he's not playing defense, he's just a shooter

Tony Parker may average 5.4 apg, but that's not good for a point guard, a guy who's supposed to be the distributor (tracy mcgrady averages 4+ assists as a SG/SF who's always been the primary option and almost never had good players to pass to). It's even more pathetic when you take into account that that point guard can penetrate AT WILL, has allstars to pass to (TD, Ginobili, etc), Shooters to pass too (bowen, horry, barry, etc) and plays in an offense that focuses on passing. If he had any passing talent he'd get an amazing number of assists in this situation with his penetration talent.
ImageImage
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 13531
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm
Location: Golden State
Poster Credit: 52
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:56 pm
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:As for Michael Redd, he is incredible inconsistent on the defensive end. There are some years when he's a good defender, other years where he's an ABYSMAL defender, other years where he's just average. On years when he's not playing defense, he's just a shooter

Tony Parker may average 5.4 apg, but that's not good for a point guard, a guy who's supposed to be the distributor (tracy mcgrady averages 4+ assists as a SG/SF who's always been the primary option and almost never had good players to pass to). It's even more pathetic when you take into account that that point guard can penetrate AT WILL, has allstars to pass to (TD, Ginobili, etc), Shooters to pass too (bowen, horry, barry, etc) and plays in an offense that focuses on passing. If he had any passing talent he'd get an amazing number of assists in this situation with his penetration talent.

I guess these are the two (along with Tracy McGrady) that we're gonna end up disagreeing on. I think Tony Parker's ability to score a huge amount of points, at a high percentage, while dishing out assists, on a team that caters to Tim Duncan is impressive. I disagree that San Antonio is a passing offense; I think they're more of a post-offense. Duncan has the ball more than anyone else, more nights than not. Tony Parker is one of the few second options in the league that could be star quality without their roadblocking franchise.

Michael Redd is debateable. Like I said, I knew people would ask about him... and I guess it just depends. I think he's a great defender, more often than not. Not a stat-sheet guy; but he gets the job done.

Any thread that evolves into a discussion about who the best players in the league are never ends in agreement.
Image
GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS DIE HARD
Image
Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:23 am
#32 wrote:
migya wrote:he is one of the best players in the nba and an alltime great talent... He should aim for goals like MVP and championships

:scratch: You're not serious, are you?

McGrady's flashing dunks have built him an adolescent fanbase, but his inability to win in the playoffs (along with his constant need to hog the ball) make him a B-List star, at best.

Tracy McGrady isn't even in the upper crop of the current NBA superstars... so how could he be considered one of the greatest talents of all-time?

Or have we already had this argument. This all sounds so vaguely familiar...?



Tracey McGrady is one of the most extreme talents in nba history! Through a chronic back problem the man still does better than most and was scoring champion and a great allround player since leaving the Raptors! He has never been on teams that had alot of talent, as the Raptors (which really shouldn't be counted because he was nowhere near the main guy there) had a couple of good players and scrubs, the Magic had an injured Grant Hill, McGrady and noone else worth metioning and the Rockets had an underachieing Yao Ming, until last season (where he was injured alot anyway) and the Rockets didn't have and still don't have any real talent other than TMac and Yao (Battier is a very good role player but that's it). TMac has never had the team that Kobe had when he won championships and that guys like Duncan, Billups, Nash and Dirk have had and that is why he hasn't been that successful in the playoffs! It is not his fault!
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:33 am
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:There was a period of time when he was without a doubt at top-5 player in the league. If you watched the (04 I think?) playoffs series against Dallas, the dude played some of the illest ball I have ever seen. It doesn't show up in his stats, but he was also one of the ten best passers in the league, he just rarely has anybody to pass to. His wizardry in that playoff series was at lebron level. That is better than a B-List star. He actually, if anything, has a tendency to pass to the open man when he'd be better served shooting over the double team because so many of his teammates were utter crap until this year.

How many players could get a squad to the playoffs with these guys as the regulars:
Here are the players who played 50+ games for that team:
Pat Garrity
Darrell Armstrong
Jacques Vaughn
Shawn Kemp after getting fat
Andrew Declerq
Pat Burke
Jeryl Sasser




:D


Like I said, his teams were garbage! Much like one Kevin Garnett's
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:35 am
coltraning wrote:
#32 wrote:The 2003 playoffs, actually. And a few players are missing from that list:

Drew Gooden, for one, averaged an amazing 14 PPG and 13 RPG for the Magic during their 7-game series. He also gathered 6 blocks during their playoff run (putting him at just under one swat per game to lead the team). The suprise in him stepping his game up was a huge reason for the Magic' success.

Gordon Giricek, whose now playing great ball for the Utah Jazz, was also on that lineup... and put up a respectable 10 PPG during the series.

Chris Whitney (the 3-point specialist) was a hot gunner for the Magic in the playoffs, with an overall 44% in the playoffs. His outside touch kept the defenders from constantly doubling T-Mac out of the gate.

It's also worth mentioning that Shawn Kemp's fat ass barely averaged 10 minutes a game during that series; he wasn't a factor. The same can be said for Pat Burke and Jeryl Sasser.

Here's the stat that pops out for me: the Orlando Magic, as a team, put up a total of 512 attempted shots in the '03 Playoffs (roughly, 73 a game). Out of the 512 attempts, Tracy McGrady took 165 of them. The next closest person (Gooden) only had 90 (nearly half as many shot attempts).

Am I suppose to believe that the statistics are simply hiding McGrady's playmaking skills... when he clearly took a third of his team's shots? It doesn't look so bad until you also note that McGrady took an attempted 10 shots a night at the free throw stripe, as well!

So McGrady wasn't simply hogging a third of Orlando's shot attempts; that was only counting the times he didn't get fouled on his way to the bucket.

*********************

I simply don't like ballhog players. Kobe Bryant isn't a favorite of mine, Allen Iverson's a black hole, Gilbert Arenas is hated by me, Tracy McGrady is on my sh*t-list, as is Antoine Walker, as is Latrell Sprewell, ect, ect, ect.

Players who average a lot of points mostly due to the fact that they take a lot of shots are overrated, in my opinion.

Well, first of all, I left out nobody. I said "who played more than 50 games". That is a fact. He had zero regular season supporting cast and made it to the playoffs. His only two above average teammates (By your favorite stat, gooden and hill) combined for 48 regular season games. That is an amazing feat in and of itself. But if you wish to bring up the playoffs then so be it.

"Sharpshooter" chris whitney was playing in 15 minutes per game, taking a total of 9 three pointers and making 4 of them, getting an average 22 points in 21 FGAs. Gooden took half as many shots as mcgrady, despite having a 14.5% worse TS%. Should he have really taken more? Darrell Armstrong was the only guy who you could possible make the argument that he should have gotten more shots, shooting the same FG% and 3P% as tmac.

So basically, tmac was as efficient or more efficient than anybody on the team that series despite playing 44 minutes per game, being double teamed against a detroit pistons team that already had three of their big five.

It seems apparent that tmac didn't hurt the team in the slightest.

By the way, I was referencing the '03 regular season, not the playoffs. The playoffs series that I thought he was phenominal in was '05, though now that I look '03 wasn't bad either.......

What playoff series was he expected to win? Against the mavs? As a 40 win team against the pistons? No, he wasn't supposed to take either of those teams to seven games.

bit of trivia - minimum of at least 20 career playoff games, mcgrady currently has the 3rd highest playoff pts/g scoring average, at 29.8 pts/g, just less than jordan and iverson but ahead of luminaries like jerry west, rick barry, elgin baylor, and others...



:D

Well siad Colt!

Those players you mentioned #32 don't deserve to be mentioned with TMac! They did fukall for him!
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21379
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:03 am
#32 wrote:
tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:32, you said you disliked ballhogs. I can respect that. But I can not agree that T-Mac was never better than a "B-List" star (unless the "A-list" consists of two or three players) and I have never heard of somebody looking down on tmac as much as you do. Really, if you don't like the "ballhogs" and you don't like Nowitsky, and think Yao's talent is wasted (not to mention you calling him a "chinaman", which is questionable judgement), then does the A-List consist of only Shaq, Nash, Lebron and Brand? Because those are really the only superstars that aren't on your **** list.

My idea of a superstar is very exclusive. It's not as easy to get on as most people's list; as I'm not pacified by some young kid who can dunk the ball.

A true superstar has the following:

1) He makes his team win. Not simply by doing it all; he makes his teammates better as well... and the franchise would be (undoubtably) worse without him. If the guy has a horrible team (like KG or Chris Bosh), that's acceptable... but if you're playing with an all-star (like Iverson and Webber), that's not. This is why the ballhogs don't impress me; because Arenas, Iverson, Marbury, Steve Francis, ect, ect, ect, are all interchangeable. They don't make their teammates better at all. Plus, their teams would be (arguably) better if they traded them (which you can't say about Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, ect).

2) He needs to excell (at a superstar level) in more than simply one aspect of the game. Tracy McGrady is a big-time scorer... but thats it. He's not among the league's best in rebounds or assists... and he's not one of the league's premiere defenders. That's why a guy like Kobe Bryant or LeBron Jame outranks him; because Tracy's only a one-dimensional star.

3) He needs to be able to defend well. If defense is a weakness, the guy isn't an all-around player so he can't be a star. On the flip side, a guy can't be offensively retarded either..

4) He must be fundamentally sound. A guy can have the most incredible hops in the world... but, until they learn how to handle and dish, they're second rate players. On the flip side, a guy also needs to use his gifts. Guys like Larry Bird and Chris Mullin only had to rely on their jumpers because they were among the league's LEAST athletic players.

5) He needs to command a double-team in the clutch. No player can be a true superstar if they can't make it when it counts.

Using this scale, I'd say that my "A-List Stars" include:

Paul Pierce
Jason Kidd
Vince Carter
Chris Bosh
LeBron James
Chauncey Billips
Jermaine O'Neal
Michael Redd
Dwayne Wade
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitski
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Chris Paul
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Kevin Garnett
Andrei Kirilenko
Baron Davis
Elton Brand
Kobe Bryant
Steven Nash
Ron Artest

Noticable guys who miss my A-List are:

Iverson (who hogs the ball)
Ben Wallace (who can't play offense at all)
Rip Hamilton (he's only great at scoring)
Gilbert Arenas (ballhog)
Antawn Jamison (can't carry a team)
Jason Terry (ballhog who can't carry a team)
Tracy McGrady (only great at scoring)
Manu Ginobli (doesn't show up in the regular season)
Carmelo Anthony (only great at scoring)
Zach Randolph (can't defend at all)
Ray Allen (only great at scoring)
Rashard Lewis (only great at scoring)
Jason Richardson (only great at scoring)

Does that clear things up for you, Pest...?

Also, when did I call Yao a "Chinaman"? If I did, it doesn't matter (because thats what he is... you can't get made at me for calling him a Chinaman, thats like migya getting angry if I called him an Australian).



All i can say is = When you make up your mind that you don't like someone #32, you don't see logic about them!!!!

Going by your so called factors, Kobe is not a A-List player! Neither is Pierce, Dirk, Carter, Wade, Redd and Parker (never one you liked anyway).


As far as McGrady only being a scorer and nothing else - LOOK AT THE STATS!
Comparing TMac to Kobe (always been held highly by you previously):
Using stats from the 2004/2005 season, where they both missed only a handful of games:
TMAC = 25.7pts, 6.2rebs, 5.7asts, 1.7stls, 0.7blks, 2.6TOs
KOBE = 27.6pts, 5.9rebs, 6.0asts, 1.3stls, 0.8blks, 4.1TOs
Conclusion - Pretty much dead even!

For their careers:
TMAC = 622games, 34:47minutes a game, 44.0FG%, 75.6FT%, 6.4rebs, 4.4asts, 2.3TOs, 1.4stls, 1.1blks, 22.1pts
KOBE = 715games, 35:42minutes a game, 45.2FG%, 83.7FT%, 5.1rebs, 4.5asts, 2.5TOs, 1.9stls, 0.6blks, 23.8pts


*As can be seen, TMac is a more allround player than Kobe but both are among the most statistically allround players in the nba!

FACT - Both are superstars and elite players so Tracey McGrady is a SUPERSTAR and definately better than such players as Redd and Billups for fuk's sake!
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:22 am
#32 wrote:Using this scale, I'd say that my "A-List Stars" include:

Paul Pierce
Jason Kidd
Vince Carter
Chris Bosh
LeBron James
Chauncey Billips
Jermaine O'Neal
Michael Redd
Dwayne Wade
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitski
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Chris Paul
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Kevin Garnett
Andrei Kirilenko
Baron Davis
Elton Brand
Kobe Bryant
Steven Nash
Ron Artest

Noticable guys who miss my A-List are:

Iverson (who hogs the ball)
Ben Wallace (who can't play offense at all)
Rip Hamilton (he's only great at scoring)
Gilbert Arenas (ballhog)
Antawn Jamison (can't carry a team)
Jason Terry (ballhog who can't carry a team)
Tracy McGrady (only great at scoring)
Manu Ginobli (doesn't show up in the regular season)
Carmelo Anthony (only great at scoring)
Zach Randolph (can't defend at all)
Ray Allen (only great at scoring)
Rashard Lewis (only great at scoring)
Jason Richardson (only great at scoring)


I can agree with the qualities you require for a superstar... but then, about the players mentioned, how can you include Kobe on the list and not Iverson or Arenas?. Kobe is the biggest ballhog of the lot...

And Michael Redd and Tony Parker? Redd is, as Pest said, and average defender. Sometimes plays well, sometimes doesn't play D at all. I consider Ray Allen as a better all-around player than Redd.

And Parker is a joke as a pg. He's more of a SG that plays PG... without his scoring, he's nothing but a backup.

Other surprising picks:

Dwight Howard.- He'll definately be a superstar, but he's too inconsisten right now. He can get 20 and 20 as easily as 8 and 6... He's still a few years away of being a true superstar.

Vince Carter.- He can't make that list without commitment to winning. He's playing great 'cos he's in his contract year only.

Kirililenko.- I'd wait till he recovers the importance he had two seasons ago...

My list of superstars would be a lot smaller. I don't have time now, but I'll post it later.
Previous

Return to Sports Board

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron