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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:42 am
tHe_dIsEaSe wrote:
TMC wrote:Wade before Nash

how do you figure? wade had better team mates and finished with a worse record in a worse conference. Seems like a no brainer in this case


Record doesn't really matter that much. It's just a 2 game difference. And I don't really agree with the "better team mates" point. O'Neal is still the best center of the game (not hard to do, as he's the only good center), but is already in decline and hasn't played in 30+ games, and other than him, Miami has three good role players (Haslem, Mourning and Posey), an awful pg (Williams) and the Brickslayer (Walker, who's able to win a game an lose the next ten by himself). I'm sure Nash wouldn't have a better record with that roster.

But it's only my opinion...

And, Migya, you can't really compare the Fakers roster with the Wizard's. Except Jared Jeffries, every player on the Wiz rotation is better, or at least equal (I'm talking about Odom/Jamison) than their Faker counterpart. Even Haywood is way better than Mimh or Kwame...
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:25 pm
migya wrote:Jamison had a great season and can score and rebound well but Odom has him in both of those categories, as he can score when he wants (as he showed in the last month or two of the season)

What do you mean? Jamison and Odom average the same amount of rebounds... and Antawn averages over 5 more points per game. How do you figure 'Lamar has him in both of those categories'?

And that season ending tear, that you spoke of, wasn't really an unstoppable streak from Odom. Lamar had sporadic nights where he'd score 23, 20, or 25, but he only scored 20 or more points 8 times in the last two months of the season. Antawn did it 17 times (including 5 games over 30 points!). Seems to me like Jamison had a larger hot streak at the season's end than Odom...

migya wrote:and he is the playmaker for a team that gives the ball to Kobe all the time. Odom has to distribute, Jamison just has to run and get ready to receive the pass.

Well, technically speaking, Odom handles the ball most frequently as a push man. He doesn't usually take the inbound pass and handle the ball, so it's kind of unfair to call him the Laker's "playmaker". He led the team in assists... but that's kind of easy to do when your starting point guard only averages 3.7 dimes a night. Lamar Odom averages more assists than Jamison because he's a better passer; not because he lets chances to score. Odom is just a pass-first forward and Jamison's a shoot-first one; but they get the same amount of touches (hell, I even think Odom gets more per game than Jamison).

migya wrote:Odom is also a better defender than Jamison, getting 1 block and 1 steal, sometimes gets 2 or 3 blocks and 2 or 3 steals, Jamison does that once a season if that!

Actually, between the two, Jamison's the only one who averages a solid steal per night (1.1). Odom averages less than one. And neither player averages a block per night.

I think Odom is a much better on the ball defender (at least, as a big man), but Jamison's a hair quicker and it helps him intercept passes through the key or across the wing.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:06 pm
#32 wrote:
migya wrote:Jamison had a great season and can score and rebound well but Odom has him in both of those categories, as he can score when he wants (as he showed in the last month or two of the season)

What do you mean? Jamison and Odom average the same amount of rebounds... and Antawn averages over 5 more points per game. How do you figure 'Lamar has him in both of those categories'?

And that season ending tear, that you spoke of, wasn't really an unstoppable streak from Odom. Lamar had sporadic nights where he'd score 23, 20, or 25, but he only scored 20 or more points 8 times in the last two months of the season. Antawn did it 17 times (including 5 games over 30 points!). Seems to me like Jamison had a larger hot streak at the season's end than Odom...


I'm not going to get into another lengthy debate. The stats over the season actually favor Jamison but this is one of those cases where stats don't show the importance of the players to their teams and their skills. Jamison had a career year averaging far more threes than he ever has and more rebounds than he ever has also. Odom actually he had one of his worst seasons but on a team with Kobe, it is easy to understand why ( :mrgreen: ). odom basically runs the offense for the Lakers. I've only seen three Lakers games this season but he was bringing the ball up the court and running the offense nearly all the time in each game. Odom is far more of a factor defensively than Jamison. Jamison gets some steals, which is good, but Odom blocks some shots as well as get steals and, though he is no super defender, he can guard star players quite well.

Odom scored far more than his average in the last month of the season, when the Lakers made their push for the playoffs. He is capable of scoring big but only does it when the Lakers need him to, as he showed in the series against the Suns where he averaged over 20pts a game.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:54 pm
migya wrote:
tHe_dIsEaSe wrote:Nash definitely deserved it ahead of brand. Brand had a better supporting cast than Nash and his team finished with a worse record. Kobe had a phenomenal individual season but you don't give somebody MVP for 81. Also, I think that since Kobe had pretty much the exact same sqaud from last year, the success was mainly due to the Zenmaster (I hate the zenmaster but props where props are due. he's one helluva coach) and BumpyHead Odom finally learning the triangle offense (he started averaging about 18-10-6 down the stretch and that was when the lakers started making their push). I would definitely not think it unfair if LeBron or Dirk had gotten the award but I think nash is the best choice. I mean who would have thought last year that James Jones, Boris Diaw, Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, Leandro Barbosa, and Eddie House formed a "deep and talented lineup". And three years ago, people would have predicted a team with this roster to win about 25 games.

Also, it has to be taken into account that nash
Lost:
a 25 ppg scorer
an 18 ppg scorer who is now the #1 player on another team
and the leagues leader in three point makes
and gained:
The worst player on the worst team in the league
A player the bulls waived
A player the knicks would give up for yet another headcase 2 guard
A player who is famous for sharp elbows
A player who pretty much no non-pacer fan had heard of
A point guard who never passed and didn't play much for the bobcats

The loss of a star, another good player, and another starter would make most teams lose at least 20-25 wins. Somehow, the suns barely missed a beat, playing like a 58 win team and getting the second seed.



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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:58 pm
migya wrote:Jamison had a career year averaging far more threes than he ever has and more rebounds than he ever has also. Odom actually he had one of his worst seasons but on a team with Kobe, it is easy to understand why ( :mrgreen: ).

That doesn't mean anything. The bottom line is that Jamison had a better season. You weren't claiming that "Odom meant more to the Lakers than Jamison does to the Wizards" (which I would have agreed with). You were saying Odom is a better player than Jamison, which is simply false. Also, you mentioned above that Jamison had a career year in three's, but it still didn't propel his scoring any higher than it usually is. Antawn has a career average of 19.4 points per game. Lamar has never averaged more than 17. Not that the category matters all that much because Jamison averaged 39 from behind the arc and Odom averaged 37... they were pretty identical.

migya wrote:odom basically runs the offense for the Lakers. I've only seen three Lakers games this season but he was bringing the ball up the court and running the offense nearly all the time in each game.

Really? Which three games did you see? I've seen multiple Lakers games this season (over 10) and I've never seen Odom handle the ball (on an inbound pass) for more than 5-7 times a game (which is roughly the same amount of time Dunleavy gets per night). Like I said, he's a great push man who can handle the ball on the fast-break... but don't be mistaken into thinking Lamar was a 'point forward' of some kind. He's a good creator who can distribute on the break, dish inside the paint, and find a couple open men on the wings... but he's still outranked by Bryant, Parker and McKie when it comes to bringing the ball up the floor. Lamar's a better passer than Jamison (I agree), but let's not start saying the Lakers offense starts with Odom.

migya wrote:Odom is far more of a factor defensively than Jamison. Jamison gets some steals, which is good, but Odom blocks some shots as well as get steals and, though he is no super defender, he can guard star players quite well.

Like I said, Odom averages less than a steal and less than a block per night. Jamison (meanwhile) grabs 1.1 snags a game. The numbers speak for themselves. I acknowledged that Odom is a better on-the-ball defender for a big man (key part), but neither players' game has ever been about blocking shots. Odom will smack 2 or 3 swats on players like Bruce Bowen, Mike Dunleavy, and Ron Artest because he's a lanky 6'10" player who rotates to guard small forwards... but he goes games at a time without getting one swat. That alone shows you that he's not the best on the ball defender; rather, he's an opportunistic 3 who takes advantage of playing the smaller guys, yet disappears when he has to pick on players like Kenyon Martin.

migya wrote:Odom scored far more than his average in the last month of the season, when the Lakers made their push for the playoffs. He is capable of scoring big but only does it when the Lakers need him to, as he showed in the series against the Suns where he averaged over 20pts a game.

This doesn't even need to be responded to. Every player comes up big against the Suns because they play no defense. However, put a guy like Lamar in a game against the Spurs (on March 30, in the final month of the season... which you're prasing very highly) and he'll shoot 30% from the field, throw 2 assists (which are cancelled out by his 2 turnovers), and come out of the game without one blocked shot (he played 43 minutes, too).

I'm afraid you're giving Odom far too much credit because he put up big numbers against the Suns in the first round. I'd agree with you if he did the same against any other team, but the truth is that the Suns are the team everybody has million-dollar nights with. Here's a list of fairly mediocre players who were made to look like league stars by the Phoenix Suns:

Mehmet Okur (Nov 18) = 29 points, 9 boards, and 1 block... 11 points more than season average

Eddy Curry (Jan 2) = 20 points, 15 boards, and 1 block... 7 points, 9 boards more than season average

Mike Dunleavy Jr (Dec 7) = 21 points, 9 boards, 4 assists... 10 points, 5 rebounds above season average

Yao Ming (Feb 27) = 27 points, 18 rebounds, 5 assists... 7 points, 8 boards, 4 assists above season average

Mike Miller (Nov 16) = 24 points and 8 rebounds... 11 points, 3 rebounda above season average

Kinda getting the picture...? Lamar Odom averaged 15 points, 9 rebounds, and 5 assists for the season... but got an average of 18 points, 13 rebounds, and 6 assists when playing the Suns in the regular season. I think you may be giving him too much credit due to his recent playoff games against a team where he's averaged Dream Team like digits against all season...
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:02 pm
TMC wrote:And, Migya, you can't really compare the Fakers roster with the Wizard's. Except Jared Jeffries, every player on the Wiz rotation is better, or at least equal (I'm talking about Odom/Jamison) than their Faker counterpart. Even Haywood is way better than Mimh or Kwame...



I don't agree TMC. The Wizards are made up of a superstar (Arenas), an allstar caliber player who is somewhat a role player half the time (Jamison), a potentially great player (Butler) and SCRUBS! Daniels is alright and Jefferies has shown some promise with some performances I've read about but the rest of the team is garbage!!!!

Mihm and Kwame have had better performances this season that any of the shouldn't be in the nba players the Wizards have on their frontline, including Haywood, who is an absolute disappointment
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:23 pm
Chris Mihm scored 3 more points and Brendan Haywood per game (in more minutes). Aside from that, they're identicle.

Here's the list of Washington/Lakers players that actually matter (from best to worst):

1) Kobe Bryant (LAL)
2) Gilbert Arenas (WAS)
3) Antawn Jamison (WAS)
4) Lamar Odom (LAL)
5) Caron Butler (WAS)
6) Antonio Daniels(WAS)
7) Smush Parker (LAL)
8) Jared Jefferies (WAS)
9) Kwame Brown (LAL)
10) Jarvis Hayes (WAS)

Seriously. Kobe's the best player out of all of them, Arenas is a distant 2nd, Jamison outplayed Odom this year (and every other year), Odom's the obvious next choice...

THEN, Caron Butler is the best out of everyone else (followed by Antonio Daniels, who proved he's still among the best backup points in the league... and would probably start on most other squads, including LAL). Smush comes in next because he's sporadic, green, streaky, and unreliable (but has the ability to come up big). Jefferies ranks in front of Kwame for two reasons: one, because Brown gets more minutes and still sucks... and, two, because he clearly gave LeBron problems in the games where LBJ struggled. When James was playing rough, you could clearly see it was because Jared was all over his. Kwame's next, followed by Jarvis (the only other guy capable of making an impact in a game).

Haywood and Mihm don't matter worth a sh*t... along with everyone else on both rosters (yes, including Luke Walton).
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:44 am
Jarvis Hayes is a really good player, but has been hampered by injuries the last two seasons. On talent alone, he should be 6th on that list, right before Daniels.

Jeffries is garbage. Don't let a couple of higlights fool you. He's probably the worst starter of both teams.

And Haywood, ... well, he's nothing really special, but he's more of a nuisance for rivals on defense. Hence, Haywood > Mimh.

The real difference bertween those two teams is the coach. Eddie Jordan can be a great assistant, but he just doesn't cut it as a Head Coach, while Phil... is Phil. 'Nuff said.
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:50 am
TMC wrote:The real difference bertween those two teams is the coach. Eddie Jordan can be a great assistant, but he just doesn't cut it as a Head Coach, while Phil... is Phil. 'Nuff said.



You are definately right about the coaches but talentwise, it is closer than that
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:41 pm
TMC wrote:Jarvis Hayes is a really good player, but has been hampered by injuries the last two seasons. On talent alone, he should be 6th on that list, right before Daniels.

Jeffries is garbage. Don't let a couple of higlights fool you. He's probably the worst starter of both teams.

I don't know about this. I agree that Jarvis is incredibly talented, but you honestly don't see anything in Jefferies? Out of all the Wizards games I've watched, I've come to the conclusion that he's a good perimeter AND inside defender, but hasn't found his niche on offense. You can't deny he does a good job against small forwards his size (he has a bit of a problem with smaller, quicker players, though). I would hardly call him garbage.

TMC wrote:The real difference bertween those two teams is the coach. Eddie Jordan can be a great assistant, but he just doesn't cut it as a Head Coach, while Phil... is Phil. 'Nuff said.

While I'm no Phil Jackson fan, I'll agree that Eddie Jordan doesn't cut it as a head coach. People try and give him credit for "turning Arenas into a star". That's BS. Anybody who watched ANY Warriors games the previous season knew that Arenas was gonna blow up and be huge. Jordan had nothing to do with it. I also don't respect his whining and sniveling after every playoff game, talking about how much LeBron gets away with. What a coward. If the head coach refuses to take responsibility and admit that the team needs to play better in order to win, than what does that say about the team itself? One or two plays don't decide the outcome of a game. A head coach (above all) should know that.
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:52 pm
yea, i mean cmon folks. were talkin about a guy who started showing signs once he first substituted in his first ever career game. he exploded with 10 points in the final minutes of the game. then became the starting PG for the warriors the rest of the season. jordan had nothing to do with that. he came to the wizards with the talent, jordan didnt help him become an all star.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:45 am
I really think Kobe and Arenas are near the same level right now. Kobe may be just ahead individually but Arenas is better in the team concept
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:10 pm
Gilbert Arenas likes to think he makes his teammates better, but he's just in denial. He's Allen Iverson with more size.
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:24 am
#32 wrote:
TMC wrote:Jeffries is garbage. Don't let a couple of higlights fool you. He's probably the worst starter of both teams.

I don't know about this. I agree that Jarvis is incredibly talented, but you honestly don't see anything in Jefferies? Out of all the Wizards games I've watched, I've come to the conclusion that he's a good perimeter AND inside defender, but hasn't found his niche on offense. You can't deny he does a good job against small forwards his size (he has a bit of a problem with smaller, quicker players, though). I would hardly call him garbage.


Looks like a decent defender, but just because he tries harder than any of his teammates. The Wizards may be the worst defensive team in the playoffs (only the Suns can be so inept), and it's all due to Jordan. He's a brilliant offensive coach, but sucks at the other end. That's why I think he'd be a great assistant.

But, back to Jeffries, he's not so good. Sure, there are players against the likes he makes a good enough job, but, as you have pointed, has trouble with quicker players, and can't contain the stronger ones. So he's limited. And on offense... well, I'd rather have Dunleavy (Sr.) on the court.
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 8:32 am
TMC wrote:
tHe_dIsEaSe wrote:
TMC wrote:Wade before Nash

how do you figure? wade had better team mates and finished with a worse record in a worse conference. Seems like a no brainer in this case


Record doesn't really matter that much. It's just a 2 game difference. And I don't really agree with the "better team mates" point. O'Neal is still the best center of the game (not hard to do, as he's the only good center), but is already in decline and hasn't played in 30+ games, and other than him, Miami has three good role players (Haslem, Mourning and Posey), an awful pg (Williams) and the Brickslayer (Walker, who's able to win a game an lose the next ten by himself). I'm sure Nash wouldn't have a better record with that roster.

You are actually trying to say the heat roster is better than the suns? Alright, as I said earlier, here is where the suns lineup was last year

The worst player on the worst team in the league
A player the bulls waived
A player the knicks would give up for yet another headcase 2 guard
A player who is famous for sharp elbows
A player who pretty much no non-pacer fan had heard of
A point guard who never passed and was a scrub on the bobcats
A benchwarmer who only ever played because he was the only backup
An allstar who can't create his own shot and is overrated on the boards

As opposed to where the Heat's players were last year:
The second most valuable player in the league
The starting point guard on a playoff team
Leading his team in points, rebounds, and assists
A strong, efficient, double-double threat
A backup who was still one of the top 6 centers in the L
A surefire Hall of famer who started all year on a playoff team
A good defensive stopper

Please justify why A is close to as good as B. And btw, you commented that the suns only won two more games but they had a pythagorean of winning 8 more games andplayed in the far tougher conference.
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