Who is better, Jordan or Kobe/LeBron

Talk about anything general in the NBA here.

Moderators: Mr. Crackerz, JREED, Guybrush, hobbes

Who is the best bball player of all time?

Kobe and/or LeBron
1
5%
Jordan
18
95%
 
Total votes : 19


All Star
Posts: 3317
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: the STACK
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:53 am
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.
"the victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war; the defeated warrior goes to war first, and hopes to win."- The Art of War

Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21381
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:15 am
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.



Jordan was considered the best player in the nba from about his third season onwards. Magic and Bird were the champions, having gotten multiple championships, but Jordan was the best scorer in those early years and on a pretty awful team, leading many to say that he just needed a bit better team to be a contender.

Kobe was never considered the best in the nba when he was with Shaq, until really the last season Shaq was there. Iverson had always scored more than Kobe and scoring was really only what Kobe was known for. The likes of Garnett and Duncan were always touted as close to best player during those years as well. Right now, Lebron and even Wade can be are considered better than Kobe
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya

All Star
Posts: 3317
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: the STACK
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:54 pm
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.



Jordan was considered the best player in the nba from about his third season onwards. Magic and Bird were the champions, having gotten multiple championships, but Jordan was the best scorer in those early years and on a pretty awful team, leading many to say that he just needed a bit better team to be a contender.

Kobe was never considered the best in the nba when he was with Shaq, until really the last season Shaq was there. Iverson had always scored more than Kobe and scoring was really only what Kobe was known for. The likes of Garnett and Duncan were always touted as close to best player during those years as well. Right now, Lebron and even Wade can be are considered better than Kobe


I don't know about all that...in the 90's you ask any random person on the street (basketball fan or not) and they said Michael Jordan. From '98 til...I'll say '02, it varied from Shaq, to Duncan, to KG, and Kidd. But from '03 til '05 Kobe was clearly the "MJ" of the new era. Then LBJ came along but wasn't considered to be the "best" until that '05 season and now theres debate over who's better, LBJ or Kobe.

But I guess this is where it becomes a matter of opinion. I honestly believe that it was more than just one year where Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA, and one can argue that he still is the best player in the NBA.
"the victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war; the defeated warrior goes to war first, and hopes to win."- The Art of War

Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21381
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:10 pm
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.



Jordan was considered the best player in the nba from about his third season onwards. Magic and Bird were the champions, having gotten multiple championships, but Jordan was the best scorer in those early years and on a pretty awful team, leading many to say that he just needed a bit better team to be a contender.

Kobe was never considered the best in the nba when he was with Shaq, until really the last season Shaq was there. Iverson had always scored more than Kobe and scoring was really only what Kobe was known for. The likes of Garnett and Duncan were always touted as close to best player during those years as well. Right now, Lebron and even Wade can be are considered better than Kobe


I don't know about all that...in the 90's you ask any random person on the street (basketball fan or not) and they said Michael Jordan. From '98 til...I'll say '02, it varied from Shaq, to Duncan, to KG, and Kidd. But from '03 til '05 Kobe was clearly the "MJ" of the new era. Then LBJ came along but wasn't considered to be the "best" until that '05 season and now theres debate over who's better, LBJ or Kobe.

But I guess this is where it becomes a matter of opinion. I honestly believe that it was more than just one year where Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA, and one can argue that he still is the best player in the NBA.



It coul be argued that Kobe has been the best player in the nba for some five years now, but the key word here is "argued". Jordan was hands down the best for over a decade in his career. No comparison
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya

All Star
Posts: 3317
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: the STACK
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:27 am
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.



Jordan was considered the best player in the nba from about his third season onwards. Magic and Bird were the champions, having gotten multiple championships, but Jordan was the best scorer in those early years and on a pretty awful team, leading many to say that he just needed a bit better team to be a contender.

Kobe was never considered the best in the nba when he was with Shaq, until really the last season Shaq was there. Iverson had always scored more than Kobe and scoring was really only what Kobe was known for. The likes of Garnett and Duncan were always touted as close to best player during those years as well. Right now, Lebron and even Wade can be are considered better than Kobe


I don't know about all that...in the 90's you ask any random person on the street (basketball fan or not) and they said Michael Jordan. From '98 til...I'll say '02, it varied from Shaq, to Duncan, to KG, and Kidd. But from '03 til '05 Kobe was clearly the "MJ" of the new era. Then LBJ came along but wasn't considered to be the "best" until that '05 season and now theres debate over who's better, LBJ or Kobe.

But I guess this is where it becomes a matter of opinion. I honestly believe that it was more than just one year where Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA, and one can argue that he still is the best player in the NBA.



It coul be argued that Kobe has been the best player in the nba for some five years now, but the key word here is "argued". Jordan was hands down the best for over a decade in his career. No comparison


That's exactly what I said in a previous post...and the reason for that is cuz there was no one of the likes of Lebron that could give him a run. I mean, let's face it...if Lebron wasn't in the league, Kobe would be the best player, hands down.
"the victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war; the defeated warrior goes to war first, and hopes to win."- The Art of War

Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21381
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:48 pm
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.



Jordan was considered the best player in the nba from about his third season onwards. Magic and Bird were the champions, having gotten multiple championships, but Jordan was the best scorer in those early years and on a pretty awful team, leading many to say that he just needed a bit better team to be a contender.

Kobe was never considered the best in the nba when he was with Shaq, until really the last season Shaq was there. Iverson had always scored more than Kobe and scoring was really only what Kobe was known for. The likes of Garnett and Duncan were always touted as close to best player during those years as well. Right now, Lebron and even Wade can be are considered better than Kobe


I don't know about all that...in the 90's you ask any random person on the street (basketball fan or not) and they said Michael Jordan. From '98 til...I'll say '02, it varied from Shaq, to Duncan, to KG, and Kidd. But from '03 til '05 Kobe was clearly the "MJ" of the new era. Then LBJ came along but wasn't considered to be the "best" until that '05 season and now theres debate over who's better, LBJ or Kobe.

But I guess this is where it becomes a matter of opinion. I honestly believe that it was more than just one year where Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA, and one can argue that he still is the best player in the NBA.



It coul be argued that Kobe has been the best player in the nba for some five years now, but the key word here is "argued". Jordan was hands down the best for over a decade in his career. No comparison


That's exactly what I said in a previous post...and the reason for that is cuz there was no one of the likes of Lebron that could give him a run. I mean, let's face it...if Lebron wasn't in the league, Kobe would be the best player, hands down.



Shaq was a monster and already at a level that was alltime superstar. Olajuwon also was at his best and alltime superstar. Both were comparable to Lebron. That era of Jordan was just better than today's
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya

All Star
Posts: 3317
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: the STACK
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:03 pm
I don't agree...but that's my opinion. I just don't think you can compare Shaq and Jordan, or Jordan and Hakeem...much less the way you can compare either of those pairs to Kobe and Lebron. If anything, what Penny was ON TRACK for after his first two seasons could be comparable.

Aside from that...we're talking about people who are considered the best to ever play the game. MJ, Kobe, and LBJ can all be considered for that title as of right now...as much as The Dream and Shaq have accomplished, they just wouldnt fall in this category for most people.
"the victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war; the defeated warrior goes to war first, and hopes to win."- The Art of War

Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:05 pm
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.



Jordan was considered the best player in the nba from about his third season onwards. Magic and Bird were the champions, having gotten multiple championships, but Jordan was the best scorer in those early years and on a pretty awful team, leading many to say that he just needed a bit better team to be a contender.

Kobe was never considered the best in the nba when he was with Shaq, until really the last season Shaq was there. Iverson had always scored more than Kobe and scoring was really only what Kobe was known for. The likes of Garnett and Duncan were always touted as close to best player during those years as well. Right now, Lebron and even Wade can be are considered better than Kobe


I don't know about all that...in the 90's you ask any random person on the street (basketball fan or not) and they said Michael Jordan. From '98 til...I'll say '02, it varied from Shaq, to Duncan, to KG, and Kidd. But from '03 til '05 Kobe was clearly the "MJ" of the new era. Then LBJ came along but wasn't considered to be the "best" until that '05 season and now theres debate over who's better, LBJ or Kobe.

But I guess this is where it becomes a matter of opinion. I honestly believe that it was more than just one year where Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA, and one can argue that he still is the best player in the NBA.



It coul be argued that Kobe has been the best player in the nba for some five years now, but the key word here is "argued". Jordan was hands down the best for over a decade in his career. No comparison


That's exactly what I said in a previous post...and the reason for that is cuz there was no one of the likes of Lebron that could give him a run. I mean, let's face it...if Lebron wasn't in the league, Kobe would be the best player, hands down.



Shaq was a monster and already at a level that was alltime superstar. Olajuwon also was at his best and alltime superstar. Both were comparable to Lebron. That era of Jordan was just better than today's


And he played against LOTS of other stars, like Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Karl Malone and Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Ewing, Mourning...

It's not like he only had to beat a couple of teams to stablish his legacy. It was much harder to win big back then.

Wiith that said, I agree that he doesn't have an easy comparison to those players (well, except Drexler), as they all played different positions. But MJ's Bulls had to beat all those teams. And they did.
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21381
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:39 am
E-Man wrote:I don't agree...but that's my opinion. I just don't think you can compare Shaq and Jordan, or Jordan and Hakeem...much less the way you can compare either of those pairs to Kobe and Lebron. If anything, what Penny was ON TRACK for after his first two seasons could be comparable.

Aside from that...we're talking about people who are considered the best to ever play the game. MJ, Kobe, and LBJ can all be considered for that title as of right now...as much as The Dream and Shaq have accomplished, they just wouldnt fall in this category for most people.



We're talking about "the best player at the time". Doesn't matter what positions the other stars were, just the level and the amount of competition and Jordan had a fair bit more than Kobe does and has had.

Shaq, to me, has done far more than Kobe has ever done, plain and simple. Shaq was the main player in the Lakers three peat, Kobe was second main player on that team, a big difference. Shaq may have only gotten one MVP, but every knows he is worth three or four, as he had vast competition himself and was always in the top vote getters for MVP, right from his second season up until some seven years ago. His numbers for his career is better than Kobe's. I believe in rank of alltime best players, Shaq is ahead of Kobe, Olajuwon arguably is also.

Lebron has the ability and already the production to be the best player ever, but he has to do what he's been doing for another six years at least AND get at least three championships, even just with three championships, he'll just been known as the best player on individual talent, not winning, so he has to win six championships like Jordan then
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21381
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:41 am
TMC wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:This arguement over who is better btwn Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron will NEVER be decided. Jordan won 6 rings, with good supporting casts. Kobe won 4 rings, with good supporting casts (fyi: I think Kobe had the better supporting cast with Shaq. Shaq was an MVP and Finals MVP which, no matter how much I love Scottie Pippen as a player, can't be said for Pippen). Lebron has yet to win a ring, but led his team to the finals earlier in his career than both Kobe and Jordan. Until LBJ wins ringS, he unfortunately does not have any leverage in this arguement.

As far as Kobe vs. MJ...
MJ has been named MVP 5 times and Kobe 1.
MJ finals MVP 6 times (1 for every ring he has) and Kobe 1.
MJ named to All-Defensive team 9 times and Kobe 7.
MJ DPOY 1 and Kobe 0.

Going by those numbers alone, you'd think MJ wins hands down...but keep in mind Kobe still has the chance to tie/break MJs records. An argument against MJ; when he played, there was no "Lebron" so to speak. There was no one as good and clutch as MJ that made deciding MVP as hard as it is when comparing Kobe and Lebron right now. So this argument comes down to a matter of opinion and really, until Kobe and Lebron retire, will not come to an end.

As far as the matter of ClipperGM....like Mr.Crackerz said, as annoying as he is, he hasn't really done anything wrong. We may not agree with him and he may say things that make us wanna slap him, but like Mr.C., I think he's been overly criticized on this board. I don't really like the guy all that much, but I respect the fact that he comes in here and actually talks basketball.



See, as much as I like the current era (since 2000), Jordan's era had more superstars and more competition. Players like Magic and Bird are comparable to Wade and Lebron (using the comparison of Jordan v Kobe). There was Isiah Thomas, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Drexler and the Centers were far more talented and at a higher level back then, with Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing heading the list.

Jordan accomplished more and was recognised as the greatest player, every year from about 1986 onwards, in his career, whereas Kobe has only really been recognised as the best in any one season in his career, about two or three times and even then that's as arguably the best player


I wouldnt say from '86 on...yeah, he was considered good, but during his early years it was all about Magic and Bird (today it's Kobe and Lebron). Jordan was like the Dwyane Wade of that time. I'd say it was '89-'90 when Jordan started getting the recognition as best in the league. That's when Magic became the "Lebron" to Jordan's "Kobe". And even then it was only for 2 seasons as he retired after being diagnosed with HIV. From then 'til '98 it was all about MJ. There were more superstars back then, I agree...but they were superstars like Wade, Dwight, Duncan, Melo, and Yao are superstars. For the years that MJ was dominant, there wasn't another dominant player like the "Kobe and Lebron" today.

And Kobe wasn't just considered the best for one season...People have been debating whether he or Lebron is the best for about 3-4 seasons now. And before that I'm sure most would have said that Kobe was the best player in the league.

I agree with you tho, the era before the current era was IMO more fun to watch as far as competition goes.



Jordan was considered the best player in the nba from about his third season onwards. Magic and Bird were the champions, having gotten multiple championships, but Jordan was the best scorer in those early years and on a pretty awful team, leading many to say that he just needed a bit better team to be a contender.

Kobe was never considered the best in the nba when he was with Shaq, until really the last season Shaq was there. Iverson had always scored more than Kobe and scoring was really only what Kobe was known for. The likes of Garnett and Duncan were always touted as close to best player during those years as well. Right now, Lebron and even Wade can be are considered better than Kobe


I don't know about all that...in the 90's you ask any random person on the street (basketball fan or not) and they said Michael Jordan. From '98 til...I'll say '02, it varied from Shaq, to Duncan, to KG, and Kidd. But from '03 til '05 Kobe was clearly the "MJ" of the new era. Then LBJ came along but wasn't considered to be the "best" until that '05 season and now theres debate over who's better, LBJ or Kobe.

But I guess this is where it becomes a matter of opinion. I honestly believe that it was more than just one year where Kobe was considered the best player in the NBA, and one can argue that he still is the best player in the NBA.



It coul be argued that Kobe has been the best player in the nba for some five years now, but the key word here is "argued". Jordan was hands down the best for over a decade in his career. No comparison


That's exactly what I said in a previous post...and the reason for that is cuz there was no one of the likes of Lebron that could give him a run. I mean, let's face it...if Lebron wasn't in the league, Kobe would be the best player, hands down.



Shaq was a monster and already at a level that was alltime superstar. Olajuwon also was at his best and alltime superstar. Both were comparable to Lebron. That era of Jordan was just better than today's


And he played against LOTS of other stars, like Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Karl Malone and Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Ewing, Mourning...

It's not like he only had to beat a couple of teams to stablish his legacy. It was much harder to win big back then.

Wiith that said, I agree that he doesn't have an easy comparison to those players (well, except Drexler), as they all played different positions. But MJ's Bulls had to beat all those teams. And they did.



As I said in my first post in those quotes above yours :wink:
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 18461
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:48 am
Location: Somewhere in this site...
Poster Credit: -4
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:06 am
migya wrote:As I said in my first post in those quotes above yours :wink:


Probably. But I can't read if there's more than two quotes boxed. :mrgreen:

All Star
Posts: 3317
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: the STACK
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:15 am
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:I don't agree...but that's my opinion. I just don't think you can compare Shaq and Jordan, or Jordan and Hakeem...much less the way you can compare either of those pairs to Kobe and Lebron. If anything, what Penny was ON TRACK for after his first two seasons could be comparable.

Aside from that...we're talking about people who are considered the best to ever play the game. MJ, Kobe, and LBJ can all be considered for that title as of right now...as much as The Dream and Shaq have accomplished, they just wouldnt fall in this category for most people.



We're talking about "the best player at the time". Doesn't matter what positions the other stars were, just the level and the amount of competition and Jordan had a fair bit more than Kobe does and has had.

Shaq, to me, has done far more than Kobe has ever done, plain and simple. Shaq was the main player in the Lakers three peat, Kobe was second main player on that team, a big difference. Shaq may have only gotten one MVP, but every knows he is worth three or four, as he had vast competition himself and was always in the top vote getters for MVP, right from his second season up until some seven years ago. His numbers for his career is better than Kobe's. I believe in rank of alltime best players, Shaq is ahead of Kobe, Olajuwon arguably is also.

Lebron has the ability and already the production to be the best player ever, but he has to do what he's been doing for another six years at least AND get at least three championships, even just with three championships, he'll just been known as the best player on individual talent, not winning, so he has to win six championships like Jordan then


If we are going "Best player (at the time)" then why are we even arguing Kobe vs. MJ??

And like I said before...Yes, MJ played against a lot better talent on a consistent basis because there were more superstars on various teams. But he didn't have that ONE guy that made it difficult to choose whether he was the best or not (like Kobe has LBJ). MJ played better overall NBA talent. Kobe is playing Lebron.

I think you guys are straying from the main arguement here. I am simply arguing that this whole "Who is better" argument won't be settled until at least Kobe and LBJ retire. The only reason why I am defending Kobe's side right now is cuz you guys are handing the title over to MJ way too easily. What I am saying is that, if MJ, Kobe, and LBJ in their primes played against each other, it would be between the 3 of them for best player....I don't think any of them would get the title hands down like you suggest.
"the victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war; the defeated warrior goes to war first, and hopes to win."- The Art of War

Image

Rookie
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:50 am
Location: Vallejo
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:18 am
before comparing, LeBron is the new Kobe, just the way Kobe was the next Jordan. So i'll scratch out LBJ on this comparison.

Jordan not only played in a whole different era than Kobe, but he played during a time when things were much rougher physically. Players would get more bumped around and fouled hard. Dirty players were more often, and good defense was what Artest does today. Yes, Kobe couldn't be stopped by Artest, but MJ would take on whole teams with this type of D and lack of "fouls". Today's rules are made to protect players from injury, they're treated like princesses. Jordan era, they were gladiators. They were made to tough things out.

And really, the superstars of today cannot compare to the superstars of old. Yes, i may be throwing in a pinch of nostalgia, but really, players were dope back then. The comparisons can be thrown around but i think in the end, the Hall of Famers will win.

Jordan at his best is a legacy. he was supernatural. Kobe is great, but his shoe line is just not as good. haha.
User avatar
Hall of Famer
Posts: 21381
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 am
Location: Perth
Poster Credit: 27
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:29 pm
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:I don't agree...but that's my opinion. I just don't think you can compare Shaq and Jordan, or Jordan and Hakeem...much less the way you can compare either of those pairs to Kobe and Lebron. If anything, what Penny was ON TRACK for after his first two seasons could be comparable.

Aside from that...we're talking about people who are considered the best to ever play the game. MJ, Kobe, and LBJ can all be considered for that title as of right now...as much as The Dream and Shaq have accomplished, they just wouldnt fall in this category for most people.



We're talking about "the best player at the time". Doesn't matter what positions the other stars were, just the level and the amount of competition and Jordan had a fair bit more than Kobe does and has had.

Shaq, to me, has done far more than Kobe has ever done, plain and simple. Shaq was the main player in the Lakers three peat, Kobe was second main player on that team, a big difference. Shaq may have only gotten one MVP, but every knows he is worth three or four, as he had vast competition himself and was always in the top vote getters for MVP, right from his second season up until some seven years ago. His numbers for his career is better than Kobe's. I believe in rank of alltime best players, Shaq is ahead of Kobe, Olajuwon arguably is also.

Lebron has the ability and already the production to be the best player ever, but he has to do what he's been doing for another six years at least AND get at least three championships, even just with three championships, he'll just been known as the best player on individual talent, not winning, so he has to win six championships like Jordan then


If we are going "Best player (at the time)" then why are we even arguing Kobe vs. MJ??

And like I said before...Yes, MJ played against a lot better talent on a consistent basis because there were more superstars on various teams. But he didn't have that ONE guy that made it difficult to choose whether he was the best or not (like Kobe has LBJ). MJ played better overall NBA talent. Kobe is playing Lebron.

I think you guys are straying from the main arguement here. I am simply arguing that this whole "Who is better" argument won't be settled until at least Kobe and LBJ retire. The only reason why I am defending Kobe's side right now is cuz you guys are handing the title over to MJ way too easily. What I am saying is that, if MJ, Kobe, and LBJ in their primes played against each other, it would be between the 3 of them for best player....I don't think any of them would get the title hands down like you suggest.



In order to evaluate who is better out of Jordan and Kobe, you have to look at their accomplishments and what level of competition they had. Jordan wins hands down, no comparison.

Lebron is awesome, but he has really done no more than Shaq did in his first five/six seasons. That's not an incorrect statement, look at their numbers and what both accomplished. Shaq went to the finals his third season and was top 3 best player his second and third seasons already. Jordan was clearly the best because he was simply above everyone else, in individual talent and desire to win and accomplishing the winning.

You're right that you can't really make a proper evaluation of who is the best ever without both Kobe and Lebron finishing their careers. but with Kobe, he has to accomplish alot more to be considered as goo if not better than Jordan
Image



Image


migya make the ring fall on ya

All Star
Posts: 3317
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: the STACK
Poster Credit: 0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:49 pm
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:
migya wrote:
E-Man wrote:I don't agree...but that's my opinion. I just don't think you can compare Shaq and Jordan, or Jordan and Hakeem...much less the way you can compare either of those pairs to Kobe and Lebron. If anything, what Penny was ON TRACK for after his first two seasons could be comparable.

Aside from that...we're talking about people who are considered the best to ever play the game. MJ, Kobe, and LBJ can all be considered for that title as of right now...as much as The Dream and Shaq have accomplished, they just wouldnt fall in this category for most people.



We're talking about "the best player at the time". Doesn't matter what positions the other stars were, just the level and the amount of competition and Jordan had a fair bit more than Kobe does and has had.

Shaq, to me, has done far more than Kobe has ever done, plain and simple. Shaq was the main player in the Lakers three peat, Kobe was second main player on that team, a big difference. Shaq may have only gotten one MVP, but every knows he is worth three or four, as he had vast competition himself and was always in the top vote getters for MVP, right from his second season up until some seven years ago. His numbers for his career is better than Kobe's. I believe in rank of alltime best players, Shaq is ahead of Kobe, Olajuwon arguably is also.

Lebron has the ability and already the production to be the best player ever, but he has to do what he's been doing for another six years at least AND get at least three championships, even just with three championships, he'll just been known as the best player on individual talent, not winning, so he has to win six championships like Jordan then


If we are going "Best player (at the time)" then why are we even arguing Kobe vs. MJ??

And like I said before...Yes, MJ played against a lot better talent on a consistent basis because there were more superstars on various teams. But he didn't have that ONE guy that made it difficult to choose whether he was the best or not (like Kobe has LBJ). MJ played better overall NBA talent. Kobe is playing Lebron.

I think you guys are straying from the main arguement here. I am simply arguing that this whole "Who is better" argument won't be settled until at least Kobe and LBJ retire. The only reason why I am defending Kobe's side right now is cuz you guys are handing the title over to MJ way too easily. What I am saying is that, if MJ, Kobe, and LBJ in their primes played against each other, it would be between the 3 of them for best player....I don't think any of them would get the title hands down like you suggest.



In order to evaluate who is better out of Jordan and Kobe, you have to look at their accomplishments and what level of competition they had. Jordan wins hands down, no comparison.

Lebron is awesome, but he has really done no more than Shaq did in his first five/six seasons. That's not an incorrect statement, look at their numbers and what both accomplished. Shaq went to the finals his third season and was top 3 best player his second and third seasons already. Jordan was clearly the best because he was simply above everyone else, in individual talent and desire to win and accomplishing the winning.

You're right that you can't really make a proper evaluation of who is the best ever without both Kobe and Lebron finishing their careers. but with Kobe, he has to accomplish alot more to be considered as goo if not better than Jordan


Desire has nothing to do with who is better. I could be 5' flat, couldn't make a layup to save my life, with all the heart and desire in the world to win, but I still wouldn't be better than Todd Fuller.

I guess really the only problem I have is in those bloded statements. I, personally, don't think you can say that Jordan was CLEARLY the best or HANDS DOWN the best with NO COMPETITION. I just don't.
"the victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war; the defeated warrior goes to war first, and hopes to win."- The Art of War

Image
PreviousNext

Return to NBA Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron