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Re: Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:17 pm
by migya
My whole point in starting this topic was to bring to light how Lebron is an alltime great player and how he is comaprable to Jordan. I believe that Michael Jordan is the Greatest Basketball player ever and noone will ever surpass him. I also believe that likely in some three years many will say it is Lebron. My belief will not change.

Re: Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:24 am
by migya
I'm only bringing this thread back to have PROPER conversation about this topic and not to have any arguments start or anyone make wayward statements, as you have done recently Stairway. I'm bringing this topic back now because I likely won't be around much for the next few weeks at least if not months and so won't be able to talk much on here. The finals have just ended and much has been said about it but I do think we can talk about this topic at this time.

Lebron is an amazing player and really has been the best player in the nba for a decade or close to it, with only Kobe at his level during some of that time, though he has fallen away the last four years or so. Lebron has the awards and statistics to be in a Greatest Of Alltime discussion. Individually he is definitely a top ten player alltime and some could even say top 5.

Where Lebron James has lacked is number of championships won so far. I think, being objective and not highly critical, that his Cleveland teams were always fairly low on talent and that he carried them, carried a big load with those teams. This season he had two other stars with him in Kyrie and Love but in the finals both were missing and so Lebron again carried the load, so again he had low talent when it counted. He did have much success in his four years in Miami, making the finals all four years and winning back to back in the second and third years. He had two stars with him then in Wade and Bosh but really the rest of the team was average but overall those teams were talented having three superstars.

A major point that can be shown to be factual is that Lebron hasn't stepped up and played like an alltime great player in three of the six finals he has been in. I recently watched part of a segment with Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless, who are quite animated and rather noncreditable to me but agreed with them on this topic, where they said that though Lebron had little talent with him in the finals, he didn't take the games by the scruff of the neck as such and take it himself anywhere near enough for Cleveland to have a proper chance of winning, especially in Game 6. Footage was shown (I did see most of the game) of Game 6 and Lebron passed far too much to teammates, especially early in the Cleveland offense, instead of creating himself. The point is that an alltime great would do more himself to win the game, especially with little talent around him. To compare, Michael Jordan would have, and did many times in his career, taken not only more shots but also created more shots going to the basket, putting alot of pressure on the other team. Jordan would have gone down, if he had have gone down, fighting and swinging and giving it all he had. Some say Lebron was tired, he played alot of minutes, but I remember Jordan and most superstars in the years I watched the nba, play alot of minutes every game in the playoffs and trying to do more themselves than what Lebron did. Same thing happened against Dallas back in Lebron's first season in Miami and somewhat in last year's finals against San Antonio.

It is a major point that Lebron doesn't always step up and take it himself in big finals games and that will, as it should, tarnish his career and stop many from declaring Lebron James as the Greatest Basketball Player Ever.

Re: Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:10 am
by migya
I am bringing back this topic because I recently viewed some videos on Youtube about whether Lebron is now better than Jordan and the GOAT. This thread was created some five years ago and now with Lebron facing the Warriors a third straight time in the finals, his career has elevated as such because of team success.

What do you think - Is Lebron James now the GOAT ahead of Michael Jordan?

Personally I think he isn't, even if he beats the Warriors in these finals. He has to rise in every finals series which he hasn't and in order for him to pass Jordan he'll have to play another three years at least and win at least another two championships and even then, what Jordan accomplished his last six full seasons in Chicago outdo any stretch of time in Lebron's career.

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:46 pm
by Stairway Man
I am annoyed at all the Lebron hype lately. Lebron is not Jordan. We all know that if these finals are called fairly, and there's no major injuries or funky suspensions, we are the superior team. Lebron can win because he gets help from the NBA.

I don't put Lebron ahead of Jordan at all. I also put Kareem ahead of Lebron and maybe Wilt. Another player that hasn't gotten credit recently is Shaq.

You can make a great case that Shaq is superior to Lebron. Even though Jordan and Lebron play different positions, people will say that Lebron is a better rebounds, even though it's not by much lol. Well Shaq had way more rebounds than King James, way more shots blocked, a higher field goal percentage, and won 4 championships. I watched both players and Shaq scared me more.

And then there's Kobe. You can argue Lebron is better based on stats. But if you take prime Kobe, he was a better scoring machine than James. 5 championships and 2 were without Shaq. He didn't have to move teams.

I think Lebron is similar to Magic and Bird, but with more hype and arguably more potential and better tools and athleticism.

But he is no Jordan. I will never consider him better than Jordan. He's more powerful than Jordan. He's more of a freight train than Jordan. But Jordan was as perfect as a player as you could get. Lebron has more shortcomings and has had to get help.

Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:29 pm
by AaronbaX
Glad you guys brought that up - is Wade really cognizant of his state to take a paycut? I mean, sure, he showed unparalleled selflessness by taking a backseat to Lebron, but dollars werent involved. If Wade takes a paycut, then its a lock that Bron stays. But Im not completely convinced Wade would.

Re: Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:52 pm
by migya
I think that if Wade is smart he will ask Chicago for a cheap buyout and go to Cleveland for a year; go championship hunting, his individual greatness days are gone.

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:07 pm
by Stairway Man
Now stats are always what they are. They are objective. There are contexts behind the stats as well. But what I want to say is that there are many ways to measure a players value. Some look at points, some look at rings, some even look at finals appearances. Some look at defense. Some look at LONGEVITY instead of peak and some look at peak instead of longevity. And like I said, there's always hypothetical situations and reasons for stats. So it's really hard to objectively decide which players belong on the list. There's so many variables.

For Lebron, I do think he is a top 10 player but I won't put him ahead of Kobe. Yes Lebron beats Kobe in almost every major stat. But there are certain things that he hasn't done, that won't allow me to put him ahead of Kobe. As i posted in the other thread, there are stats that prove that Kobe is better in the clutch than Lebron. Some say that those stats are myths, but in the playoffs and Finals, Kobe has better stats that James during clutch situations. He has a higher field goal percentage, he has made more game winning shots, and he has even turned the ball over less. And he has done it while looking fearless.

So for that reason I cannot put Lebron ahead of Kobe. Plus I have seen Kobe at his peak and I have watched him score 50 points 4 games in a row and dominate like no other. He was the closest thing to Micheal Jordan in every way. Even if Lebron is measurably better in all around stats, Kobe gave me the feeling that he was the better winner and tougher player.

Now maybe you could say part of that is Kobe played under Phil Jackson and had certain players around him. He had Shaq, Gasol, etc.. But I just cannot forget when Lebron had Wade and Bosh and shrunk against Dirk and got psyched out by 5 ft 5 JJ Bereau and Jason Terry. He had like 8 points in the last game and I think no points in the last quarter. Sure, these are only certain moments but these are what stick out to me when I look back.

When it really really counts, Kobe is the better finisher. We could list all the circumstances and reason why this may be, but it is what it is. Kobe has risen to the occasion and that is what I am going to go with.

I would also put Duncan ahead of Lebron. I know that is not a popular opinion. But you can say not only has Duncan won more in the Finals, but he is ahead of James in certain stats and beats him in certain qualities. He has better defense, more blocks, and more rebounds. Plus he has been the captain on the best coached team for years. Lebron always had to try to form super teams and he's never allowed his team to get coached in a real team system. For that reason, I put Duncan ahead of James. He's easier to build around and play with. While James always filled up the stat sheet and created this stigma that he always had no help, that was never the case with Duncan. Duncan was never entitled and he played like he needed to earn his starting job position every year.

Lebron may be the best player ever if you define best player as the guy who can get to the Finals with the least amount of help. But by playing that one man team role, he makes it much harder for good quality players to play their style and fit in with him. So Lebron's biggest quality with being able to dominate for his team has also been his Kryptonite in a way.

I would say Lebron is probably on Larry Bird's level. They have won the same amount of championships. And their basic stats are very close, with Bird having the edge in rebounds. Bird has other intangible qualities that Lebron doesn't have, but Lebron beats him in athleticism and longevity. He's also the more marketable player. But I honestly think Bird and Lebron are neck and neck.

What would Lebron have to improve upon in order for me to put him higher up on the list? Well there are some things I want to list. He would actually have to reduce his assists by a little bit and learn how to play off the ball better. He would have to be more willing to have a coach that could play a type of system that would incorporate more ball movement and his team would have to become less dependent on him. He would also have to develop a better jump shot, which would probably help him more in the clutch. And he would also need 1 or 2 more go2 moves that he could make, even when he's tired. Such as a smoother fadeaway, where he could shoot it quickly, effortlessly, and efficiently. Also, it would help if he was able to post up more efficiently with his size. So if he really improved upon all those things, but his stats went down, I would see him as a more improved player. Plus, he would also have to play more consistent defense, even if his stats went down. Lebron James has an amazing body for basketball and is a freak of nature. And he can do some insane things. But when it comes to skills, there are so many things and small nuances to the game that I personally feel he should be better at. He has done so many amazing things. But I still do feel like he never maximized his talent like someone like Kobe or Duncan or Steph.