Where would you rank Lebron James alltime

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Posts: 1352
» Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:49 pm
Nope, because Phil was never outcoached. Spoelstra has no idea what to do vs Popovich. The chess master.

It's like the Dallas series all over again. Clogging the lanes, forcing jumpshots and him passing. He is as good as a facilitator as there is but if you can't get into the lane there is not much you can do.

He will regress though and put up a great game four I imagine. However, the Spurs are the best team equip to taking on the Heat and I have said that for a while. I thought the Heat would beat the Thunder rather easily again who just guard Lebron straight up, which leads to a lot of open threes.

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Posts: 3177
» Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:31 am
To win a championship is the all-time greatest acomplishment, ask any athlete in the world. Its silly to to think otherwise.

I have said this before, and its not based on opinions but fact, playoffs are a different level of play, yes someone can have a spectacular regular season, can put up great numbers but come playoffs the greats put the team on their back and carry them, no excuses at all. Being the greatest hinges on how a player performs on the biggest stage, against the best competition, and their ability to carry that team to victory. In looking at Lebrons all-around and future success compared to the greatest the amount of championships he wins, how he wins them all count. I cannot reiterate the importants of playoff basketball, finals basketball, its like the spelling Bee, and then the spelling Bee championship, different different levels.

Miami Heat coach has won a championship, so please no excuse for dude, the spurs have recently lost in the playoffs so it is not impossible to say Pop can't be out-coached.

What makes Jordan so great is the fact you couldn't couldn't contain dude, you sag he kills you with a jumper, you play him too tight he drives right past you, he elevated all his teammates to play at a certain level. Miami won with the big 3, their was a spectacle when he signed with the heat, he carried the Cavs without much star power to finals. He now has the other players/allstar that are suppose to help him hoist multiple championship banners, that was the expectations he put on himself, especially after creating so much buzz with the announcement he made on ESPN, you would think he won the presidential seat.

Even Lebron knows if he doesn't win a certain amount of championships he legacy will be somewhat tarnished, IF we are debating being the greatest thereare no excuses for that individual, you are suppose to carry your team to championships, if you are that dominate means there are little or no flaws to your game.

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Posts: 1352
» Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:43 am
Every star in the playoffs has slightly worse stats than their regular season stats (exactly the same once you adjust for other teams defensive efficiencies)

That being said, we all know it's the goal of each player to win a championship. However if a player doesn't win it all, that doesn't stop us from knowing their impact. We know Horry was mediocre/bad for most of his career. We don't rate him higher because we know the impact he has on the floor is marginal. And winning a championship should/does matter the most to them. It's how teams/organizations are judged. Not players. This isn't boxxing. This isn't tennis. There are a lot of moving pieces.

I am sorry, but saying Spoelstra won a championship doesn't mean anything to me. Spoelstra sucks. He went through a very, very weak Eastern Conference and then beat an equally star studded team with a coach that is worse than him. Even without that said, nothing Spoelstra does would indicate he is a good coach. Thibs and Vogel both outcoached him. Hell, it took him till game seven to figure out to double the post vs the Pacers. How long will it take him to figure out the most complicated offense in the league?

His number two player, the second best player on the Heat has a TS percentage of 490(for the playoffs). That's awful. Other than name value Wade isn't contributing jack **** and we can't blame Lebron for that. It's not an excuse, it's what is happening. Wade is being legitimately bothered by his knee.

"you sag he kills you with a jumper, you play him too tight he drives right past you, he elevated all his teammates to play at a certain level."

These are all things Lebron does, except he rebounds better.

Jordan will have the best legacy when Lebron's career is all said and done, but that doesn't make him the better player. Lebron has the best peak of all time. He may have a better career statistically. Jordan will have the better legacy regardless.

Who gives a **** about legacy when you are discussing a player's ability to play? Who gives a **** about expectations? Do you honestly look at these things when you are rating players?
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 22191
» Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:46 am
Again, Lebron's performance over his ten year career is enough to establish him as an alltime great, top ten player right now.

I don't think Jordan's Bulls teams, either of the two threepeat teams, were that great, just filled with role players around superstar Pippen and greatest of alltime Jordan. I think Phil Jackson is the greatest coach of all time, he has won the most championships as coach and many see that as reason for him being so. Lebron's Cleveland teams were rather awful and built badly around him, but they went far his last two years at least. The current Miami Heat, to me, are better than any of Jordan's Bulls championship teams on star talent only, though lacking much on proper role players in comparison, as Jordan's Bulls were well built to win. This season, Bosh and Wade have not been superstars and definately currently have been rather bad in these playoffs. Lebron has carried them to the finals, making it three straight, signifying that team as currently the best there is.

Lebron has carried teams to many wins. His Cleveland teams won alot, if you look at their win/loss records, and they were awful. Championships or not, he has won alot and been the reason why his teams have done so.

Three more years at this level and to me he'll be the greatest ever and I'm rather biased to the era that I was growing up, but it is what it is.
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Posts: 13751
» Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:19 pm
This article pretty much sums up how I feel:

http://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-j ... son-2013-4

This gist of it is, yes, LeBron certainly CAN be better than Jordan. Anything is possible. But in order to do it, he's still got a tall order to fill:

Tom Manfred wrote:He can catch Jordan. But he needs to be just as good as he is this year for the next five years.

Think about that a second...

LeBron is having perhaps the best individual NBA seasons of the last 20 years. But to accumulate the hardware and stats necessary to pass Jordan as the Greatest Of All Time, he needs to do it five more times!

He needs to average 27-7-7, win four titles, and continue to be better than Kevin Durant for the next half-decade.

Those expectations are almost laughable, but that's what it will take to pass Jordan.

Manfred addresses exactly what I'm trying to explain in this thread: just because LeBron has had a better individual season than Jordan ever had doesn't mean he's had the career Michael did. LeBron is a more efficient offensive player, fine. But Jordan was more dominant. Jordan imposed his will on the game to a FAR greater degree than LeBron ever has (and it's not even a discussion).

So, sure. LeBron CAN catch Jordan. But he's gotta earn it. I'm not just gonna give it to him, like you guys wanna. I'm gonna wait for LeBron to TRULY have surpassed Mike to say so. Is it possible? Sure. But it's a damn tall order.

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Posts: 1352
» Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:02 pm
Yeah, Lebron's career is not as good right now, but his best year is better than Jordan's best year. Titles don't mean anything to me for all time rankings so I will ignore that, and I don't like counting stats so I won't use 27-7-7 as a baseline either. Especially when he is only playing 33 minutes a game in the regular season now.

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Posts: 3177
» Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:05 am
The great ones win championships period, Lebron came through for his team as needed, adds to his legacy. Had they lose to Spurs in game 6, obvioulsy the tune would be different.

The whole arguement about Lebron and his teammates being not to par to Jordans can come to rest, when things click and people play at a certain level then oh yes ! then they are capable.

What seperated James in game 7 was his ability to finally hit perimeter shots, the Spurs and their great coaching continued playing off him even after hitting multiple amounts. So Lebron gets the credit he pulled off the championship he was clutch when they needed buckets this is the micro scope when you look at/compare who the greats are, he still has a long ways to catch Jordan, and he got lucky by the mis-haps of the Spurs in game 6.

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Posts: 1352
» Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:19 am
Any game breakdown where clutch is involved is not a conversation worth having.

It was a great series.
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Posts: 13751
» Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:31 am
Revised, again:

(1) Larry Bird
(2) LeBron James
(3) Rick Barry
(4) Julius Erving
(5) Elgin Baylor
(6) Scottie Pippen
(7) Dominique Wilkins
(8) James Worthy
(9) Chris Mullin
(10) John Havilcek


LARRY BIRD (13 years):

24.3 PPG, 10.0 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG
49.6 FG%, 37.6 3PT%, 88.6 FT%
3.1 T/OPG, 2.5 PFPG, 38.4 MPG
3x MVP
2x Finals MVP
3x NBA Champion
12x NBA All-Star

LEBRON JAMES (10 years):

27.6 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG
49.0 FG%, 33.7 3PT%, 74.7 FT%
3.3 T/OPG, 1.9 PFPG, 39.7 MPG
4x MVP
2x Finals MVP
2x NBA Champion
9x NBA All-Star


At this rate, Larry has the overall statistical excellence; LeBron is the better scorer, but Larry is the more efficient scorer and also contributes more in LeBron staples (rebounding, passing). Despite identical traditional numbers, James is the unquestionably superior defender. Really, Larry vs LeBron is just Mike vs LeBron with the roles switched: LeBron being the superior scorer and more dominant player, while Bird was the more efficient and less-selfish player.

I think LeBron will surpass Larry in a matter of 2 years. One more MVP season like this one and it's over; but even if he takes a year on easy street after winning the title last night, he'll still likely surpass Larry once he ties him in rings. He's already got more MVPs and as many Finals MVPs; just needs a few more years to cement his legacy.
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Posts: 13751
» Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:38 am
"The main thing is the main thing and that's championships. That's all that matters." - LeBron James, 6/24/13

Straight from the horses mouth. :wink:

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Posts: 1352
» Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:54 pm
Players have hubris. That's to be expected.

He also said they don't define a players career at some point. I don't think the two things he said are mutually exclusive. I think they are the only thing that matters, but he's also right when he said they don't define a player.

They define a legacy, but not the player. Legacies are what stories are made of, but that doesn't mean players with great legacies are better players for having them.

That's my stance.
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Hall of Famer
Posts: 22191
» Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:17 am
That's two championships for Lebron and he's getting closer to Jordan's level.

As far as career stats go -

Jordan (not counting his two seasons at Washington) - 32pts, 6.5rebs, 5.5asts, 2.5stls, 1blk, 3TOS, 38.5mins

Lebron - 27.5pts, 7.5rebs, 7asts, 1.7stls, 0.8blks, 3.3TOS, 39.7mins

As much as I think Lebron is approaching Jordan in stature, and so will many people, likely he will be touted as the Greatest Ever in some two years, Jordan's career stats are superior. Lebron will never be the scorer Jordan was or get the steals he got. He's not much more allround either.

Also, Jordan's best season is better than Lebron's best -

Jordan - 1988-89 - 32.5pts, 8rebs, 8asts, 2.9stls, 0.8blks

Lebron - 2007-08 - 30pts, 7.9rebs, 7.2asts, 1.8stls, 1.1blks

That Jordan season was one of the best in history. Oscar Robertson had a few seasons like that also.
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Posts: 13751
» Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:52 pm
You can make your case for branding and marketing, Blackfoot... but this sh*t is my childhood. And THIS video hits me right, square in the feels. When you guys claim LeBron is better than Jordan, this is pretty much what rolls through my mind:

No sh*t, at 2:15, the hairs on my dick stand STRAIGHT up.

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Posts: 1352
» Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:42 pm
Yeah, but we all remember things from our childhood in a better light. I know I do that.
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Posts: 13751
» Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:58 pm
If your nips don't turn to stone while watching that, there's something wrong with you.

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