Gentry vs Nelson

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» Mon May 10, 2010 12:44 pm
dareedle wrote:Alvin, is a rare coach that has made mistakes, and has actually applied his knowledge to bring new insight as a coach (professional babysitter) ... just like Phillip or well regarded Pops. We just don't have a superstar at the forward position (no Gasoft, no Duncan, no Melo, no Durant, no KG, no Rasheed, no Boozer) and in a division loaded with decent coaches and a dirth of talent, means you will miss a lot of playoff games with an undermanned run and gun squad.
Team Kobe, was a bad as the Warrior's before Gasoft, which means you can't build a playoff winning team around a SG or PG. I just can't wait for the awesome squad of John Wall, Ellis and Curry set a mark for dynamic entertaining team that scores a lot but loses a lot.
Bottom line, everyone on this forum is aware of Nellie's shortcomings, but that and C-Webb rookie year being our last time with a servicable big means you got a lock to miss the playoffs with whatever coach.


I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks the squad the Warriors have is capable of being any kind of factor, even with everyone healthy. I think what the OP was trying to argue was that more could be done on Nelson's part to maximize the talent that is here. Instead, he's insisted on the same tired shenanigans that fail year after year.

No focus on defense.

Endless mind games with players he doesn't like.

Inconsistent rotations and minutes that deflate confidence and team morale.

Most of all, he just looks bored and tired sitting on that bench.

You can contrast that with Gentry or pretty much any other coach in the league........coaches who are enthusiastic, have energy, and instill confidence in their players. With the Suns, much like the W's--a notoriously poor defensive team--Gentry has gotten them to buy into committing themselves fully on that end...and now you see the results. His philosophy--a bit more defensive-minded than D'Antoni--has influenced player personnel decisions and brought in tougher players. These are things that are simply impossible with Nelson because he doesn't care one iota about defense, rebounding, or doing the ugly things that actually win games.

Sure, the talent isn't there yet with this team. But I don't know how anyone can argue that our young players are learning the fundamentals of NBA basketball that are going to help them become winners in the future. Thank goodness Curry seemed to have been educated properly, probably by his father.
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» Mon May 10, 2010 3:54 pm
Maybe Vegi wrote:
dareedle wrote:Alvin, is a rare coach that has made mistakes, and has actually applied his knowledge to bring new insight as a coach (professional babysitter) ... just like Phillip or well regarded Pops. We just don't have a superstar at the forward position (no Gasoft, no Duncan, no Melo, no Durant, no KG, no Rasheed, no Boozer) and in a division loaded with decent coaches and a dirth of talent, means you will miss a lot of playoff games with an undermanned run and gun squad.
Team Kobe, was a bad as the Warrior's before Gasoft, which means you can't build a playoff winning team around a SG or PG. I just can't wait for the awesome squad of John Wall, Ellis and Curry set a mark for dynamic entertaining team that scores a lot but loses a lot.
Bottom line, everyone on this forum is aware of Nellie's shortcomings, but that and C-Webb rookie year being our last time with a servicable big means you got a lock to miss the playoffs with whatever coach.


I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks the squad the Warriors have is capable of being any kind of factor, even with everyone healthy. I think what the OP was trying to argue was that more could be done on Nelson's part to maximize the talent that is here. Instead, he's insisted on the same tired shenanigans that fail year after year.

No focus on defense.

Endless mind games with players he doesn't like.

Inconsistent rotations and minutes that deflate confidence and team morale.

Most of all, he just looks bored and tired sitting on that bench.

You can contrast that with Gentry or pretty much any other coach in the league........coaches who are enthusiastic, have energy, and instill confidence in their players. With the Suns, much like the W's--a notoriously poor defensive team--Gentry has gotten them to buy into committing themselves fully on that end...and now you see the results. His philosophy--a bit more defensive-minded than D'Antoni--has influenced player personnel decisions and brought in tougher players. These are things that are simply impossible with Nelson because he doesn't care one iota about defense, rebounding, or doing the ugly things that actually win games.

Sure, the talent isn't there yet with this team. But I don't know how anyone can argue that our young players are learning the fundamentals of NBA basketball that are going to help them become winners in the future. Thank goodness Curry seemed to have been educated properly, probably by his father.


well stated!
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» Mon May 10, 2010 3:58 pm
Maybe Vegi wrote:
dareedle wrote:Alvin, is a rare coach that has made mistakes, and has actually applied his knowledge to bring new insight as a coach (professional babysitter) ... just like Phillip or well regarded Pops. We just don't have a superstar at the forward position (no Gasoft, no Duncan, no Melo, no Durant, no KG, no Rasheed, no Boozer) and in a division loaded with decent coaches and a dirth of talent, means you will miss a lot of playoff games with an undermanned run and gun squad.
Team Kobe, was a bad as the Warrior's before Gasoft, which means you can't build a playoff winning team around a SG or PG. I just can't wait for the awesome squad of John Wall, Ellis and Curry set a mark for dynamic entertaining team that scores a lot but loses a lot.
Bottom line, everyone on this forum is aware of Nellie's shortcomings, but that and C-Webb rookie year being our last time with a servicable big means you got a lock to miss the playoffs with whatever coach.


I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks the squad the Warriors have is capable of being any kind of factor, even with everyone healthy. I think what the OP was trying to argue was that more could be done on Nelson's part to maximize the talent that is here. Instead, he's insisted on the same tired shenanigans that fail year after year.

No focus on defense.

Endless mind games with players he doesn't like.

Inconsistent rotations and minutes that deflate confidence and team morale.

Most of all, he just looks bored and tired sitting on that bench.

You can contrast that with Gentry or pretty much any other coach in the league........coaches who are enthusiastic, have energy, and instill confidence in their players. With the Suns, much like the W's--a notoriously poor defensive team--Gentry has gotten them to buy into committing themselves fully on that end...and now you see the results. His philosophy--a bit more defensive-minded than D'Antoni--has influenced player personnel decisions and brought in tougher players. These are things that are simply impossible with Nelson because he doesn't care one iota about defense, rebounding, or doing the ugly things that actually win games.

Sure, the talent isn't there yet with this team. But I don't know how anyone can argue that our young players are learning the fundamentals of NBA basketball that are going to help them become winners in the future. Thank goodness Curry seemed to have been educated properly, probably by his father.


Spot on and great post!!!

The notion that you put Amare on this team and we are a playoff team is absurd in my opinion. Phoenix is in the top 10 in a couple defensive categories... most notably holding down opponents shooting %. You are just not going to win many games allowing over 50% shooting from your opponent. Relying on shooting 54%+/game to win is not a recipe for success.
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» Mon May 10, 2010 6:01 pm
bada wrote:The notion that you put Amare on this team and we are a playoff team is absurd in my opinion. Phoenix is in the top 10 in a couple defensive categories... most notably holding down opponents shooting %. You are just not going to win many games allowing over 50% shooting from your opponent. Relying on shooting 54%+/game to win is not a recipe for success.


Putting Amare on a "healthy" Warrior's team changes the team dramatically to say the least. I might overestimate some of the talent on the Warriors now and then but you are are definetly underestimating them.

- We had the Jackson debacle
- We had the Monta drama
- We had injury after injury after injury etc. etc.
- The Warriors finished the season strong despite all this. If they didn't win they came close in most of the games and only got blown out twice that I can remember (talking late season.) They also beat teams like the Thunder, when the Thunder really wanted a win and was clicking on all levels.

I know you want to blam Nellie for all of the Warrior's woes, and maybe even California going bankrupt, but this team had many more problems than just Nellie. However they have a lot of talent and Amare is a hands down dominant PF. Adding him to a healthy Warriors team, EVEN with Nellie at the helm, puts them in the playoffs. Not saying they do great, but they get there.
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» Mon May 10, 2010 6:08 pm
Curry + Amare on pick&roll = sex.
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» Mon May 10, 2010 7:50 pm
Beast Mode wrote:Curry + Amare on pick&roll = sex.
Gross but true.
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» Mon May 10, 2010 8:01 pm
Chum wrote:
Beast Mode wrote:Curry + Amare on pick&roll = sex.
Gross but true.


Absolutely, it would be a wonderful OFFENSIVE combination. But a lack of offense is NOT what prevented us from being a playoff team. We were a top 2 offensive team this year. We did not make the playoffs simply because we could not defend or rebound. Amare would not help much in this respect
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» Mon May 10, 2010 8:01 pm
Chum wrote:
bada wrote:The notion that you put Amare on this team and we are a playoff team is absurd in my opinion. Phoenix is in the top 10 in a couple defensive categories... most notably holding down opponents shooting %. You are just not going to win many games allowing over 50% shooting from your opponent. Relying on shooting 54%+/game to win is not a recipe for success.


Putting Amare on a "healthy" Warrior's team changes the team dramatically to say the least. I might overestimate some of the talent on the Warriors now and then but you are are definetly underestimating them.

- We had the Jackson debacle
- We had the Monta drama
- We had injury after injury after injury etc. etc.
- The Warriors finished the season strong despite all this. If they didn't win they came close in most of the games and only got blown out twice that I can remember (talking late season.) They also beat teams like the Thunder, when the Thunder really wanted a win and was clicking on all levels.

I know you want to blam Nellie for all of the Warrior's woes, and maybe even California going bankrupt, but this team had many more problems than just Nellie. However they have a lot of talent and Amare is a hands down dominant PF. Adding him to a healthy Warriors team, EVEN with Nellie at the helm, puts them in the playoffs. Not saying they do great, but they get there.


It took 50 wins just to make the playoffs in the West this year. You're saying all the Warriors have to do is add Stoudemire and they double their win total. Excuse me while I choke on my dinner. That's just ridiculous.

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» Mon May 10, 2010 8:38 pm
Chum wrote:
bada wrote:The notion that you put Amare on this team and we are a playoff team is absurd in my opinion. Phoenix is in the top 10 in a couple defensive categories... most notably holding down opponents shooting %. You are just not going to win many games allowing over 50% shooting from your opponent. Relying on shooting 54%+/game to win is not a recipe for success.


Putting Amare on a "healthy" Warrior's team changes the team dramatically to say the least. I might overestimate some of the talent on the Warriors now and then but you are are definetly underestimating them.

- We had the Jackson debacle
- We had the Monta drama
- We had injury after injury after injury etc. etc.
- The Warriors finished the season strong despite all this. If they didn't win they came close in most of the games and only got blown out twice that I can remember (talking late season.) They also beat teams like the Thunder, when the Thunder really wanted a win and was clicking on all levels.

I know you want to blam Nellie for all of the Warrior's woes, and maybe even California going bankrupt, but this team had many more problems than just Nellie. However they have a lot of talent and Amare is a hands down dominant PF. Adding him to a healthy Warriors team, EVEN with Nellie at the helm, puts them in the playoffs. Not saying they do great, but they get there.


This is the Fitz argument, that blames everything on this year's injuries. Nelson's reputation is based on many, many years of coaching teams of different talent levels.

In fact, you could say this was Nelson's best year, that the injuries forced him to concentrate on coaching. Also in play was the team sale issue. Nelson was auditioning for any prospective owner who might be watching and evaluating. It was amusing to see him jump up like a startled cat whenever the camera focused on him and he would turn into a virtual coaching tornado.

Most critics think ownership and management are equally to blame. Nelson was like a deregulated bank. Without supervision and direction, he was free to operate destructively.

Any star player would help the Ws, especially a big fast one! Evidently Staudimire didn't want to come to the Ws. Why?

Nelson is not responsible for the financial crisis, but he is to blame for locusts and earthquakes. And I have been seeing a lot of snakes on my hikes. Coincidence?
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» Mon May 10, 2010 9:28 pm
Maybe Vegi wrote:It took 50 wins just to make the playoffs in the West this year. You're saying all the Warriors have to do is add Stoudemire and they double their win total. Excuse me while I choke on my dinner. That's just ridiculous.


AND be healthy!!!

carlgo wrote:This is the Fitz argument, that blames everything on this year's injuries. Nelson's reputation is based on many, many years of coaching teams of different talent levels.

In fact, you could say this was Nelson's best year, that the injuries forced him to concentrate on coaching. Also in play was the team sale issue. Nelson was auditioning for any prospective owner who might be watching and evaluating. It was amusing to see him jump up like a startled cat whenever the camera focused on him and he would turn into a virtual coaching tornado.

Most critics think ownership and management are equally to blame. Nelson was like a deregulated bank. Without supervision and direction, he was free to operate destructively.

Any star player would help the Ws, especially a big fast one! Evidently Staudimire didn't want to come to the Ws. Why?

Nelson is not responsible for the financial crisis, but he is to blame for locusts and earthquakes. And I have been seeing a lot of snakes on my hikes. Coincidence?


I'm not blaming everything on the injuries, but I am blaming a lot on the injuries.

Somehow I think that if Nellie could do the earthquakes and locusts thing the Warrior's would have a championship. Clearly Nellie is the good guy and Phil Jackson is Satan. Kobe is Satan's #1 soldier. I give you this as proof...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_HYg3_W2hM[/youtube]

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» Mon May 10, 2010 11:58 pm
The thing about Amare---When I watch Amare play defense, it reminds of the NBA all star game. It almost seems like Amare is trying to make a deal with his defenders like, "Hey you make me look good, and I'll make you look good. And may we all get max contracts."

This glorification of scorers is in our blood. I don't knopw if Nelly put it there, but it doesn't work. Yeah, Amare would make our team even more exciting.
Do you remember a lineup of Sjax, Maggs, Crawford and Monta? Did that work? Let's say you added Stoudamire on to that, would that work any better? Ok, you could argue we don't have those ballhogs Crawford and Sjax, and now we have Curry. But as far as rebounding goes, Stoudamire after Biedrins is a huge step back!
Who do we really have who is a good defender?, what Turiaf?, just cause his swipes look so pretty? Don't tell me Azibuike, and Williams? Williams is all good things to all people, to hear all the projected attributes on this board.

The problem with the Warriors is nobody minds the store.....or the score. Heh Heh
Wouldn't it be interesting if adding Amare, resulted in less wins than a healthy Raja Bell?
OK, maybe not, Amare is an efficient scorer, But if we had Amare. I know having a healthy Raja Bell would result in more wins than having Monta.
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» Tue May 11, 2010 1:35 am
bada wrote:
Chum wrote:
Beast Mode wrote:Curry + Amare on pick&roll = sex.
Gross but true.


Absolutely, it would be a wonderful OFFENSIVE combination. But a lack of offense is NOT what prevented us from being a playoff team. We were a top 2 offensive team this year. We did not make the playoffs simply because we could not defend or rebound. Amare would not help much in this respect



I agree with Bada. I did think that adding Amare to the team would make a huge difference and though it would make quite a difference, it would not improve the defense and rebouding a whole lot, just a bit. I'd really like to have Amare at Center next to AR at PF, but it just won't happen and you have to have a very good coaching system for it to all work, like Gentry has done this season in Phoenix
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» Tue May 11, 2010 9:18 am
If the Warriors would have got Amare preseason, a lot of things would have been different. He would have had no affect on the injury situation that the team suffered, but given the original trade that we all heard about pre-draft, the Dubs would have given up 3 players that did absolutely nothing for a dominant PF in Amare. Add to Amare, we would have had a happier Jackson and Monta all season to go along with Curry.

I dont know what would have been done about the C position, but I guess it would have been Turiaf and most likely we still would have picked up Hunter and Tolliver when other players were injured.

This team for a full season may not have been a 50 win team, but they would have been much more competetive than what we had. Also, if the Dubs were alittle better against their competition, it would not have taken 50 wins to get into the playoffs because they would had some more W's against their Western competition.

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» Tue May 11, 2010 11:04 am
"Always" Next wrote:If the Warriors would have got Amare preseason, a lot of things would have been different. He would have had no affect on the injury situation that the team suffered, but given the original trade that we all heard about pre-draft, the Dubs would have given up 3 players that did absolutely nothing for a dominant PF in Amare. Add to Amare, we would have had a happier Jackson and Monta all season to go along with Curry.
I dont know what would have been done about the C position, but I guess it would have been Turiaf and most likely we still would have picked up Hunter and Tolliver when other players were injured.

This team for a full season may not have been a 50 win team, but they would have been much more competetive than what we had. Also, if the Dubs were alittle better against their competition, it would not have taken 50 wins to get into the playoffs because they would had some more W's against their Western competition.

We wouldn't have had Curry. That was the sticking point, we didn't want to give up our draft pick.
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» Tue May 11, 2010 11:08 am
War Years wrote:
"Always" Next wrote:If the Warriors would have got Amare preseason, a lot of things would have been different. He would have had no affect on the injury situation that the team suffered, but given the original trade that we all heard about pre-draft, the Dubs would have given up 3 players that did absolutely nothing for a dominant PF in Amare. Add to Amare, we would have had a happier Jackson and Monta all season to go along with Curry.
I dont know what would have been done about the C position, but I guess it would have been Turiaf and most likely we still would have picked up Hunter and Tolliver when other players were injured.

This team for a full season may not have been a 50 win team, but they would have been much more competetive than what we had. Also, if the Dubs were alittle better against their competition, it would not have taken 50 wins to get into the playoffs because they would had some more W's against their Western competition.

We wouldn't have had Curry. That was the sticking point, we didn't want to give up our draft pick.


That is exactly right. The trade was agreed to in principal (the 6th pick along with the other players mentioned) but the warriors wanted to wait to see if Curry fell to them at 6. When he did, the trade in that structure fell apart. Warriors refused to part with Curry, and Suns refused to make the trade without him.

Had Minnesota smartly drafted Curry as one of the two PG's they took, Amare would have been a Warrior.

But it did not appear we ever had a chance at Amare AND Curry. Was either or. I am happy we did not make that trade even though at the time I was all for it.

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