biggumt wrote:I keep hearing people say oh my god hes going to be the next bosh/garnett/odom type of player which is just flat out ridiculous to say. He doesn't even have one bit of an offensive identity, a move he can go to. he can't even play defense down there without getting pushed around. (see la game where odom shoved him all the way back to the 3point line from inside the key). hes more of a liability than a benefit to us. he can't go up against the bigs at all. if he was going to be a star we would have seen flashes and I have seen none. they said he gained 20 lbs last summer and hes still scrawny as hell. same situation with brandon wright. these two won't be stars. book it.

Like the Turnovers- How do these myths start?

He doesn't even have one bit of an offensive identity, a move he can go to.

So you've never seen a Randolph move to the basket??? Ok maybe what you're saying is a good post move? So that is "offensive identity ". This guys has a distinctive game that wreaks of identity, offensively and defensively. I'll grant sometinmes It's not pretty.

he can't even play defense down there without getting pushed around. (see la game where odom shoved him all the way back to the 3point line from inside the key).

Hmmm, You should talk, Biggunt, you are not doing a very good job of defending your post. OK sorry.
Odom, interesting! Was that the same game where he stole a rebound from Odom, and completely humiliated him causing Odom to seek revenge and foul him. Then after the game, Odom graciously praises his talent, says Randolph reminds him of himself when he started out and says " he 'd like to work out with him". I guess a big guy like Odom, probably did get revenge. He does spot a bit of weight as Chum says. But not that many bigs "push him around".

if he was going to be a star we would have seen flashes and I have seen none.

None??? Are we talking about the same player? The biggest criticism about Randolph is all you see is flashes. This guy fills up highlight reels, that's why some people in the national media are so goo goo- gaa gaa over him.
You didn't even mention the most substantive criticism against Randolph. That he sometimes doesn't look like he knows what he's doing on the court. And has had some stupid looking reckless fouls. I've heard analogies like," chicken with his head cut off ". I've yet to hear any of the people who've made that charge last year acknowledge that he HAS improved on that this year, and on some occasions has looked very poised.

Chum, in your comparison to all those great players, u conveniantly leave out one, major factor. Age. Ie numerous extra years in training

do me a favour- re do your list with all those players you listed, but do their hights and weights from when they were 20. Make it a little more fair/realistic huh?

I can't believe we have thread about how AR is not gonna become anything special when this team is so f*cking terrible and depressing... he's one of the few things we have going on, guys. Give him a break...

In adddition, I find it amusing the say Randolph will never become anything when he is the 2nd youngest player in the entire NBA. And one that has never received consistent minutes.

bada wrote:In adddition, I find it amusing the say Randolph will never become anything when he is the 2nd youngest player in the entire NBA. And one that has never received consistent minutes.

I agree with that general statement but that "stat" gets over used and is exaggerated to no end. the youngest you can come into the NBA is 19. there are plenty of 19 and 20 year olds in the league. he's really kind of tied for second.

saying he's the second youngest in that context makes it sound like he's 15 or something.

Kevin Durant is <18 months older than AR.
Tyreke Evans is 2 months older
Derick Rose is currently 21
Brook Lopez is currently 21
etc...

face it the dude is raw like sushi not because he's 20, but because he doesn't have a high BB IQ, and (like most athletic freaks) has not really had to push himself to get better up until now.

I'm happy keeping him. bynum was a project for LA and look at him now... patience will pay off

first off wrote:

bada wrote:In adddition, I find it amusing the say Randolph will never become anything when he is the 2nd youngest player in the entire NBA. And one that has never received consistent minutes.

I agree with that general statement but that "stat" gets over used and is exaggerated to no end. the youngest you can come into the NBA is 19. there are plenty of 19 and 20 year olds in the league. he's really kind of tied for second.

saying he's the second youngest in that context makes it sound like he's 15 or something.

Kevin Durant is <18 months older than AR.
Tyreke Evans is 2 months older
Derick Rose is currently 21
Brook Lopez is currently 21
etc...

But all those guys get playing time and don't get demoted to the bench for every mistake they make...

I'm not saying he's gonna be a star, but Nellie ain't helping him at all.

first off wrote:

bada wrote:In adddition, I find it amusing the say Randolph will never become anything when he is the 2nd youngest player in the entire NBA. And one that has never received consistent minutes.

I agree with that general statement but that "stat" gets over used and is exaggerated to no end. the youngest you can come into the NBA is 19. there are plenty of 19 and 20 year olds in the league. he's really kind of tied for second.

saying he's the second youngest in that context makes it sound like he's 15 or something.

Kevin Durant is <18 months older than AR.
Tyreke Evans is 2 months older
Derick Rose is currently 21
Brook Lopez is currently 21
etc...

face it the dude is raw like sushi not because he's 20, but because he doesn't have a high BB IQ, and (like most athletic freaks) has not really had to push himself to get better up until now.

I'm happy keeping him. bynum was a project for LA and look at him now... patience will pay off

That "stat" as you call it is relevant depending on the conversation you are having. In terms of being raw, yes I agree with you to a point. Age certainly is part of it but I think the bigger part of it is a lack of playing time, lack of a defined role from the coaching staff, and lack of being able to play through mistakes.

However THIS topic is dealing with people already giving up on him becoming a good player. In that conversation, I think him being the 2nd youngest player in the league is VERY relevant. How can we already cast judgements on such a young player who has hardly had any court time.

Quazza wrote:Chum, in your comparison to all those great players, u conveniantly leave out one, major factor. Age. Ie numerous extra years in training

do me a favour- re do your list with all those players you listed, but do their hights and weights from when they were 20. Make it a little more fair/realistic huh?

I don't know how to go about finding the height/weight of those players when they were 20, but I'll go ahead and concede to you that each and every one of them weighed less than they do now. I'll also quote myself from this thread...

Chum wrote:AR is not and will not be a good power forward. He'll never have the bulk to hold his ground in the paint, and his scoring ability comes from driving the open lane.

That was an unfair statement on my part. AR could, someday, have bulk to effectively play the PF position. I'll also say that he's allready tall enough, has a better wingspan than most PFs and he has some ok post moves.

At this point in time AR does not have the weight and strength needed to effectively play the PF position. Maybe we should play him there and try to develop him as a post player. Continue to bulk him up. Get him the best strength condition coach we can etc. That might be the way to go.

BUT he is fast enough, and agile enough to play the SF position right now! If you put AR at the PF spot right now he is undersized. If you put AR at the SF right now he is oversized. We need a dedicated defender at one of the wings and AR, to me, would be the perfect player to fill that need.

Many of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. We need a defender to make their lives miserable. AR could be that guy. Mags ain't it, and let's say we draft Turner. He's still a bit undersized at the SF position and he's more of a SG.

AR would be a great defensive mismatch at the SF position.

Chum wrote:
BUT he is fast enough, and agile enough to play the SF position right now! If you put AR at the PF spot right now he is undersized. If you put AR at the SF right now he is oversized. We need a dedicated defender at one of the wings and AR, to me, would be the perfect player to fill that need.

Many of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. We need a defender to make their lives miserable. AR could be that guy. Mags ain't it, and let's say we draft Turner. He's still a bit undersized at the SF position and he's more of a SG.

AR would be a great defensive mismatch at the SF position.

Is it just me but since when did AR ever compete at the 3 spot? Maybe switching at the defensive side but I don't see him playing most of his minutes at SF. He's a decent help defender but remember not only he's an offensive downgrade at the 3 spot, he's not a good initial defender when facing guys quicker than him. So are you saying play him at SF and have 3 bigs at front court or just make a switch at the defensive side? Just my thoughts.

TankWatch wrote:

Chum wrote:
BUT he is fast enough, and agile enough to play the SF position right now! If you put AR at the PF spot right now he is undersized. If you put AR at the SF right now he is oversized. We need a dedicated defender at one of the wings and AR, to me, would be the perfect player to fill that need.

Many of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. We need a defender to make their lives miserable. AR could be that guy. Mags ain't it, and let's say we draft Turner. He's still a bit undersized at the SF position and he's more of a SG.

AR would be a great defensive mismatch at the SF position.

Is it just me but since when did AR ever compete at the 3 spot? Maybe switching at the defensive side but I don't see him playing most of his minutes at SF. He's a decent help defender but remember not only he's an offensive downgrade at the 3 spot, he's not a good initial defender when facing guys quicker than him. So are you saying play him at SF and have 3 bigs at front court or just make a switch at the defensive side? Just my thoughts.

There are different ways to play the SF position. Some teams like to have a long range gunner (think Paul Pierce) at SF, and others have more of a 3rd big type of player (think Gerald Wallace) at SF. I think AR can become a Gerald Wallace type of player if we put him at SF.

AR coming in to help two legit bigs could help us go from the worst rebounding team in the league to a very good rebounding team. This would take a lot of pressure off our guards to rebound, which means they can get on the fast break quicker.

I just think their are too many positives to moving AR to SF that the Warriors should at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, fine. Move him to the PF spot and see how he does there.

Chum wrote:

TankWatch wrote:

Chum wrote:
BUT he is fast enough, and agile enough to play the SF position right now! If you put AR at the PF spot right now he is undersized. If you put AR at the SF right now he is oversized. We need a dedicated defender at one of the wings and AR, to me, would be the perfect player to fill that need.

Many of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. We need a defender to make their lives miserable. AR could be that guy. Mags ain't it, and let's say we draft Turner. He's still a bit undersized at the SF position and he's more of a SG.

AR would be a great defensive mismatch at the SF position.

Is it just me but since when did AR ever compete at the 3 spot? Maybe switching at the defensive side but I don't see him playing most of his minutes at SF. He's a decent help defender but remember not only he's an offensive downgrade at the 3 spot, he's not a good initial defender when facing guys quicker than him. So are you saying play him at SF and have 3 bigs at front court or just make a switch at the defensive side? Just my thoughts.

There are different ways to play the SF position. Some teams like to have a long range gunner (think Paul Pierce) at SF, and others have more of a 3rd big type of player (think Gerald Wallace) at SF. I think AR can become a Gerald Wallace type of player if we put him at SF.

AR coming in to help two legit bigs could help us go from the worst rebounding team in the league to a very good rebounding team. This would take a lot of pressure off our guards to rebound, which means they can get on the fast break quicker.

I just think their are too many positives to moving AR to SF that the Warriors should at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, fine. Move him to the PF spot and see how he does there.

I totally agree. The reason why we've never tried it is the same reason why mags has logged a majority of his mins as a PF while at golden state: b/c Nellie likes it small. We've seen him face up nearly every time he goes one on one, but usually he's being guarded by someone who can just muscle him around. I think if he is given significant minutes with a smaller man guarding him, u will see the post moves come out, which would be a very nice thing to witness.

first off wrote:

Chum wrote:

TankWatch wrote:

Chum wrote:
BUT he is fast enough, and agile enough to play the SF position right now! If you put AR at the PF spot right now he is undersized. If you put AR at the SF right now he is oversized. We need a dedicated defender at one of the wings and AR, to me, would be the perfect player to fill that need.

Many of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. We need a defender to make their lives miserable. AR could be that guy. Mags ain't it, and let's say we draft Turner. He's still a bit undersized at the SF position and he's more of a SG.

AR would be a great defensive mismatch at the SF position.

Is it just me but since when did AR ever compete at the 3 spot? Maybe switching at the defensive side but I don't see him playing most of his minutes at SF. He's a decent help defender but remember not only he's an offensive downgrade at the 3 spot, he's not a good initial defender when facing guys quicker than him. So are you saying play him at SF and have 3 bigs at front court or just make a switch at the defensive side? Just my thoughts.

There are different ways to play the SF position. Some teams like to have a long range gunner (think Paul Pierce) at SF, and others have more of a 3rd big type of player (think Gerald Wallace) at SF. I think AR can become a Gerald Wallace type of player if we put him at SF.

AR coming in to help two legit bigs could help us go from the worst rebounding team in the league to a very good rebounding team. This would take a lot of pressure off our guards to rebound, which means they can get on the fast break quicker.

I just think their are too many positives to moving AR to SF that the Warriors should at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, fine. Move him to the PF spot and see how he does there.

I totally agree. The reason why we've never tried it is the same reason why mags has logged a majority of his mins as a PF while at golden state: b/c Nellie likes it small. We've seen him face up nearly every time he goes one on one, but usually he's being guarded by someone who can just muscle him around. I think if he is given significant minutes with a smaller man guarding him, u will see the post moves come out, which would be a very nice thing to witness.

Imagine, if you will, Nellie finally saying to hell with small ball and just trying to keep an uptempo game going with a large team. Then imagine Cohan shelling out the big bucks for a guy like Boozer. Yes ridiculous , but we could have something like this as a Warriors team...

Warriors 2010-2011
PG - Curry (6-3, 185lbs, 21yo): Ideal floor general. Can score or dish.
SG - Evan Turner (6-7, 210lbs, 21yo): Inside/Outside scorer. Good D.
SF - AR (6-10, 210lbs, 20yo): Can defend outside or in. Can drive well.
PF - Boozer (6-9, 266lbs, 28yo): BEEF --> Defense oriented
C - Al Jefferson (6-10, 265lbs, 25yo) BEEF --> Offensively oriented

Pros
* Jefferson/Boozer/AR crashing the boards
* You've got two true bigs. Both can do it all but one focuses on D the other on Offense. This is a perfect combo because their strengths won't clash. btw Jefferson cannot be stopped in the low post. He's an amazing low post scorer. Few players in the league defend the paint as well as Boozer.
* AR defends the perimeter. If his man shoots from long range can you think of anyone who would be better at turning to crash the boards? Long shots = long rebounds. Jefferson/Boozer controlling the paint and AR closing in for the big bounce. The Warriors would be a top rebounding team easily.
* Curry has a ridiculous amount of options on offense, inside, outside and on the roll.
* Turner is a very good inside/outside scorer. How do you defend him with Jefferson down low, Randolph ready to follow him inside and Curry waiting outside?
* THIS TEAM IS GIGANTIC!!!

I know, this is a stupid pipe dream, but a team like this would be feared. You can still run a fast break game most of the time, and you'd be running it a lot more often since we'd be getting about twice as many rebounds as we do now. Curry/Turner/AR might not be as fast as Curry/Monta/Mags but I think they would be able to run the break just fine.

I honestly think this team would give the Lakers fits if they had a year to gel.

Where's my "AR for SF" bumpersticker?

Chum wrote:Warriors 2010-2011
PG - Curry (6-3, 185lbs, 21yo): Ideal floor general. Can score or dish.
SG - Evan Turner (6-7, 210lbs, 21yo): Inside/Outside scorer. Good D.
SF - AR (6-10, 210lbs, 20yo): Can defend outside or in. Can drive well.
PF - Boozer (6-9, 266lbs, 28yo): BEEF --> Defense oriented
C - Al Jefferson (6-10, 265lbs, 25yo) BEEF --> Offensively oriented

I was about to give you a huge WTF on this line-up, but thankfully I caught later in your post where you said this is a huge pipe dream. I guess it doesn't hurt to dream, does it?

About your idea for Randolph starting at the 3... He would need to improve a bit on his mid-range game, and a LOT on his 3-point shooting and perimeter D for me to even entertain the idea if I was the one coaching him.

I think you overrate the beef factor when it comes to 4s. A lot of times a lanky, flexible power forward can maneuver in and get rebounds and put-backs that the bigger, fatter guys couldn't hope to get to. The fact that dude runs like a gazelle doesn't really hurt matters either.

Randolph/ Wright at the 4 going forward works for me. I think Andres in the problem.

Boozer and Jefferson, together? Both would want the ball in their hands in the post. Plus, that wouldn't ride well with the other guys cause all want to score.

first off wrote:

Chum wrote:

TankWatch wrote:

Chum wrote:
BUT he is fast enough, and agile enough to play the SF position right now! If you put AR at the PF spot right now he is undersized. If you put AR at the SF right now he is oversized. We need a dedicated defender at one of the wings and AR, to me, would be the perfect player to fill that need.

Many of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. We need a defender to make their lives miserable. AR could be that guy. Mags ain't it, and let's say we draft Turner. He's still a bit undersized at the SF position and he's more of a SG.

AR would be a great defensive mismatch at the SF position.

Is it just me but since when did AR ever compete at the 3 spot? Maybe switching at the defensive side but I don't see him playing most of his minutes at SF. He's a decent help defender but remember not only he's an offensive downgrade at the 3 spot, he's not a good initial defender when facing guys quicker than him. So are you saying play him at SF and have 3 bigs at front court or just make a switch at the defensive side? Just my thoughts.

There are different ways to play the SF position. Some teams like to have a long range gunner (think Paul Pierce) at SF, and others have more of a 3rd big type of player (think Gerald Wallace) at SF. I think AR can become a Gerald Wallace type of player if we put him at SF.

AR coming in to help two legit bigs could help us go from the worst rebounding team in the league to a very good rebounding team. This would take a lot of pressure off our guards to rebound, which means they can get on the fast break quicker.

I just think their are too many positives to moving AR to SF that the Warriors should at least give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, fine. Move him to the PF spot and see how he does there.

I totally agree. The reason why we've never tried it is the same reason why mags has logged a majority of his mins as a PF while at golden state: b/c Nellie likes it small. We've seen him face up nearly every time he goes one on one, but usually he's being guarded by someone who can just muscle him around. I think if he is given significant minutes with a smaller man guarding him, u will see the post moves come out, which would be a very nice thing to witness.

And hear again illustrates the HUGE problem with the way Randolph has been developed (or NOT developed).

From the time he was drafted, he was told they want him to be their future SF. Even Nelson last year AND this year stated as such. He busted his ass in the off-season working on his perimiter game and perimiter ball handling. He played incredibly well at the SF during Summer League and his efforts showed. Still a work in progress but he WAS progressing.

But he ONLY gets game action during the season at the 4 and 5 and then gets critizised by the coaching staff about mistakes he makes and not functioning like a post player.

How confusing this must be for this young player who obviously is raw and needs to be taught the game. But he is told to work on his perimiter game but then game action is in the post.

They have COMPLETELY f'ed up his development. I hope not permanantly. What he needs is a clearly definded role and to know that he will be allowed to play through his mistakes like EVERY OTHER player on the roster. As he gets more comfortable and works hard, his role and minutes will expand.

Had that been done to start, I think you would see a guy at this point who would be on the verge of becoming an outstanding player.