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Are You Willing To Watch A Slow Down/Defensive Team In Order To Win?

Yes
8
80%
No
2
20%
 
Total votes : 10


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:41 am
carlgo wrote:
Chum wrote:
carlgo wrote:People are confusing "small ball" with "fast ball". The key to winning is the "fast" part. Nelson, a flawed and destructive personality, simply tries to go too small and the team grinds to a halt because they get no rebounds and give up a ton of easy baskets on defense.

The Spurs are successful because of what?:

A. Their coach is a control freak, slow-down sort of guy, and that is the "correct way to play" (Dunleavy quote).
B. Their players are better and would win under any system.

The answer has been B.

Fast ball gives the team the best chance to win in the real world of not getting HOF big guys. The reason it has not been more successful here is that Nelson confuses "small" with "fast" and thinks magical thoughts about how the team can be fast without actually getting possession of the ball except on in-bounds after the other team scores after three successive offensive rebounds....

As I say all the time, Nelson is a great coach who coaches poorly, many people thinking that he actually sabotages the team for whatever dark Nellie reasons. No, "small ball" is a failure, but "fast ball" is both entertaining and successful.

I believe this roster could play fast and effectively with the simple addition of another mobile rebounder/defender and a rational coach who concentrates on good lineups, player development, decent defense and an actual offensive structure for those inevitable half-court episodes.

Fast ball is the answer and there wouldn't be the kind of complaints about the team if it actually played that style.

Personally, I hate sumo-ball and won't watch it. I will watch male porn before I tune into big guys grinding it out (don't get excited) while the coach runs up and down the court screaming out every offensive and defensive set.

Watch college ball now, if you can. Horrid. It is simply which team gets the more favorable charging calls and shoots the best from the outside.


I'm in partial agreement with you here carlgo. I think your distinction between "small ball" and "fast ball" is totally accurate, but I don't think Nelson WANTS to play "small ball." He WANTS to play "fast ball" but he can't get the talent for it.

Think back to the days when Webber came to the Warriors. EVERYONE thought we had a championship team. Everyone ie. the fans, Nellie, Webber, the rest of the Warriors, everyone. It was the last piece of Nellie's scheme. A truely talented big man who could run the floor.

I still hear people siding with C-Web over Nellie on this and it makes me sick. Nellie wanted C-Web to play center and C-Web didn't want to. He was a baby about it, and imho he destroyed what would have been the best shot for the Warriors to become champs since the 70s.

I'm of the opinion that I'd take a slow, unspectacular, defensive, grinder of a team if they would win. However I'd much rather watch "fast ball." I think Nellie would as well. Give him a talented big who can run the court and I think we'll all get the best of both worlds.


Don't be too sure Nelson would use his new big fast guy correctly. His history of taking them out when they are doing well is so well known that the word "sabotage" has come up more than once from national writers (I like to think I used it first). That is one serious charge! But, Nelson has a history that is quite bizarre, as Bada noted from his personal involvement.

When Weber left, I was one of those who blamed him. I bought the whole Nelson golly-gee I don't know why Weber won't respond to my kind and fatherly coaching style act. And an act it was. The befuddled expression, the sad eyes, the mournful tones, the sighs...

But, then one day KNBR had a reporter on who described incredibly strange things that were going on at Warrior practices. Nelson taking his shirt off to fight players, terrible verbal abuse and plain craziness. There was other stuff he, like Bada, couldn't talk about. Now I realize there were probably legal ramifications as well as vows of secrecy.

The KNBR hosts just lashed out at this poor reporter and accused him of having a hidden agenda and all. He said to not kill the messenger, but they just about did. When he was off the air, they went into a long discussion about how this was a character assassination of innocent Nellie. Nellie this, Nellie that, in the cuddly diminutive.

The reporter's story shocked me. I loved Nellie. Surely this couldn't be true! But, the reporter was awfully convincing. He wasn't making it up. Clearly this was a real problem and in time, as other evidence trickled in to support it, I really came around to Weber's side.

It is really quite clear now that poor Weber was just a kid really and had no idea how to deal with a huge, drunken crazy man who was also his coach. What would you do? Think about it. Not too many options that would work out for you, are there?

Some people want the split the blame equally. I don't think so.

You have to wonder whether putting Weber at center was a legitimate attempt to win games or if it was simply a way to get at Weber.

Nelson's masterful act worked. The crowds were 90% for him. Everyone thought it was the young punk against the wise and patient coach. Remember that people actually cheered when Weber dislocated his shoulder?

Nelson's eyes probably glow red when he recalls how he suckered everyone with his awe-shucks act. Still does the act, some fans still buy into it. Fewer all the time.

Coach Nelson vs C Webber who had a mental mistake that cost his team the national championship in college. Webber who lied under oath and was convicted for taking money from boosters.

Webber who cost the university of Michigan to forfeit all of those wins.

Webber who stopped talking to the media because one columnist mentioned in an article that he was dating Tyra Banks( when she was HOT). No one would have cared about the Sacramento Bee article if he had just ignored it.

Webber who failed a drug test for pot? Who is stupid enough to fail the test when 99 percent of the league has no problem passing.

That's just at the top of my head, the guy was no angel.

He was a great player and I was pissed off as anyone when he left after that great rookie year. But I understand why a coach would have lots of issues with him.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:49 am
Quazza wrote:can ANYONE explain wtf he was doing wit Randolph today!?

15 pts (6-11), 11 rebounds, 2 stls, 1 blk in just 20 minutes. Please, somebody justify Nelsons coaching/minutes distribution there?


to add to this, take his comments after the game

"Nobody but Ellis and Maggette gave us anything."



riigghhtttt?


Beat me to it. Just posted about it in the other thread.

I thought I'd never say this, but I'm willing to support any Dubs player demanding to be traded before Nellie ruins their NBA careers.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:08 am
sorry to come in late, but I think the obvious answer to the poll is YES. I think that no matter what the style, a winning team is exciting.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:43 am
TMC wrote:
Quazza wrote:can ANYONE explain wtf he was doing wit Randolph today!?

15 pts (6-11), 11 rebounds, 2 stls, 1 blk in just 20 minutes. Please, somebody justify Nelsons coaching/minutes distribution there?


to add to this, take his comments after the game

"Nobody but Ellis and Maggette gave us anything."



riigghhtttt?


Beat me to it. Just posted about it in the other thread.

I thought I'd never say this, but I'm willing to support any Dubs player demanding to be traded before Nellie ruins their NBA careers.



Just put yourself in their position, you'd want out as well
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:08 am
TMC wrote:
Quazza wrote:can ANYONE explain wtf he was doing wit Randolph today!?

15 pts (6-11), 11 rebounds, 2 stls, 1 blk in just 20 minutes. Please, somebody justify Nelsons coaching/minutes distribution there?


to add to this, take his comments after the game

"Nobody but Ellis and Maggette gave us anything."



riigghhtttt?


Beat me to it. Just posted about it in the other thread.

I thought I'd never say this, but I'm willing to support any Dubs player demanding to be traded before Nellie ruins their NBA careers.


i Just dont get it hey. Wtf is he watching?

is AR perfect? Hell no, but seriously-what does the kid need to do. He answers A LOT of our questions

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:10 am
i don't get why you so mad at AR/Nelson thing in yesterday's game? randolph played pretty non-impressive game, yes he got stats and what not, but for one pulled rebound there was a play he made that was completely ridiculous, his most famous being dribling dribling dribling and going for some crazy fade side jump shot. on defense he jumped on everyone and missed his rotations perfectly. yes, he was hustling and energizing, but that did not traspire into good team play (nothing really did yesterday except for the first quarter run). he had 3 fouls in first quarter alone and sat out a lot, but then he played big minutes and was not yanked even when swinged on basketball, got a rebound and made a horrible play on offense, missed defensive assignments - i was even surprised that, knowing nelson, he let the kid play through his crazy faults.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:19 am
martin wrote:i don't get why you so mad at AR/Nelson thing in yesterday's game? randolph played pretty non-impressive game, yes he got stats and what not, but for one pulled rebound there was a play he made that was completely ridiculous, his most famous being dribling dribling dribling and going for some crazy fade side jump shot. on defense he jumped on everyone and missed his rotations perfectly. yes, he was hustling and energizing, but that did not traspire into good team play (nothing really did yesterday except for the first quarter run). he had 3 fouls in first quarter alone and sat out a lot, but then he played big minutes and was not yanked even when swinged on basketball, got a rebound and made a horrible play on offense, missed defensive assignments - i was even surprised that, knowing nelson, he let the kid play through his crazy faults.


This!

I really, really, really want AR to do well. I like the kid and love his athleticism, but he plays very sloppy. He's getting his minutes and he's playing in position so no excuses for him.

Well, one excuse. He's still very young. I say he just needs more time to develop. He might need another year, or even two before he comes into his own.

Oh, and Nellie's comment's seemed accurate to me. Monta and Mags were the Ws only real offense. I thought they played excellent offense when the duo isolated itself and played a drivers version of pick and roll. It was impressive and I wish they did it more.

Roy and Miller just plain kicked our ass. There D was great, they used their size and athleticism to slow the game down, and they forced themselves to the line again and again. They just played better than us.

Finally, Turiaf and Beans need to take it to the rim more often. Beans still doesn't look completely healthy.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:24 am
martin wrote:i don't get why you so mad at AR/Nelson thing in yesterday's game? randolph played pretty non-impressive game, yes he got stats and what not, but for one pulled rebound there was a play he made that was completely ridiculous, his most famous being dribling dribling dribling and going for some crazy fade side jump shot. on defense he jumped on everyone and missed his rotations perfectly. yes, he was hustling and energizing, but that did not traspire into good team play (nothing really did yesterday except for the first quarter run). he had 3 fouls in first quarter alone and sat out a lot, but then he played big minutes and was not yanked even when swinged on basketball, got a rebound and made a horrible play on offense, missed defensive assignments - i was even surprised that, knowing nelson, he let the kid play through his crazy faults.


yeah, his game was terrible. Hate it when someone gets 5 offensive rebounds in 20 min. Or shoots over 50%. Or gets a couple of steals and a block and does not turn the ball over once.

Martin, of course he did not play a perfect game. But why are you critizising him and not the others. I mean Monte got completely torched by Roy and missed a TON of defensive assignments and turned it over 6 times.

Curry made some terrible, lazy passes. Morrow could not shoot. Radmonovich was plain terrible in his minutes.

Nelson's coments were atrocious. AR had 15pts and 11 rebounds with ZERO turnovers in only 20 freaking min and he says nobody but Monta and Mags "gave him ANYTHING". A big "f*ck you" to AR.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:43 am
bada wrote:
martin wrote:i don't get why you so mad at AR/Nelson thing in yesterday's game? randolph played pretty non-impressive game, yes he got stats and what not, but for one pulled rebound there was a play he made that was completely ridiculous, his most famous being dribling dribling dribling and going for some crazy fade side jump shot. on defense he jumped on everyone and missed his rotations perfectly. yes, he was hustling and energizing, but that did not traspire into good team play (nothing really did yesterday except for the first quarter run). he had 3 fouls in first quarter alone and sat out a lot, but then he played big minutes and was not yanked even when swinged on basketball, got a rebound and made a horrible play on offense, missed defensive assignments - i was even surprised that, knowing nelson, he let the kid play through his crazy faults.


yeah, his game was terrible. Hate it when someone gets 5 offensive rebounds in 20 min. Or shoots over 50%. Or gets a couple of steals and a block and does not turn the ball over once.

Martin, of course he did not play a perfect game. But why are you critizising him and not the others. I mean Monte got completely torched by Roy and missed a TON of defensive assignments and turned it over 6 times.

Curry made some terrible, lazy passes. Morrow could not shoot. Radmonovich was plain terrible in his minutes.

Nelson's coments were atrocious. AR had 15pts and 11 rebounds with ZERO turnovers in only 20 freaking min and he says nobody but Monta and Mags "gave him ANYTHING". A big "f*ck you" to AR.


i didn't say he played terrible, did I? i say he played above all warriors except monta and maggs, and that says little, cause yesterday team was terrible. monta did good enough job on roy untill the second part of fourth when it matterded. call it fatigue. monta been flying into offense and going up against three blazers and he is not as big as roy and benn playing tons. if i critisize him, i would critisize the only warrior that really is darn good (and maggs of late). when i see randolph stoping, say, gasol for 41 minutes and scoring as well, i would applaud him. but that ain't happening , and it's natural - randolph is young, lacks basketball fundamentals and is still not sure who he is on offense - 4, 3 or 5 (at least now). yes, he has a ton of responsibility when he palys because nelson gives him freedom to create. i do not know if it is good or bad, but for a player it's a sign of becoming important team leadership wise.
as for nelson's comment, he says tons of things (even good things) that are met with -' why would you believe him? it means nothin' and so on. suddenly he doesn't mention randolph as a little bright spot in the mess of game that it was, and it's NELSON IS EVIL! and so on. common, it's 21 century there's no evil or god or whatever mythological power. suddenly nelson's words matter.
again, i'm not expert on 'nelson', and even less so on judging people's morality, but it's pretty much picky and after moments of rational criticism there comes a moment of disgust and open hatred, which, to me, is not a sign of good argumentation.
again, nelson is not the biggest (if any, this team has been in plague and in so much adversity that it is really difficult to judge the overall coaching job he's done and for certain game decisions, well, i'm pretty sure he's doing the best he can and sees the mismatches he wants to avoid and force on offense) problem, cohan is the problem, money is the problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:16 pm
I admit, I didn't see the Portland game. I look at the stats the next day. 15-11 in 20 minutes. I see his +- was -11. Nelson praises Monta and Maggette, even though Mont'as +- is -17. I think Nelson's starting to kiss Monta's ass the way he use to kiss Jackson's.
This becomes more ridiculous with every passing game. Does anyone really have any doubt that 20 year old Randolph's mistakes can be largely eliminated with more minutes on the court? And for those of you who see no reason to give more minutes, I only assume you are mathematically challenged and still haven't come to grips with the reality that the W'S WILL NOT MAKE THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR.
Some more I suppose meaningless stats:
Randolph ranks 18th in the NBA in efficiency rating per 48 minutes played with any other players who have played his number of minutes. He ranks ahead of Dwayne Wade, Durant, Amare, Bynum, and Deron Williams.

This isn't some battle of good and evil. Let the boy miss his assignments and let the kid play through his " crazy faults" because after all , you got nothin' better to watch.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:40 pm
So Martin- in a game where port don't have Oden, pryz or aldridge, your happy for us to STILL play small ball!?

Nelson last night proved he's not about match ups at all cos last night we could have used our hight advantage! But no, instead let's go even smaller and let cj go 0-8 in over 30 mins

bravo mr Nelson, bravo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:03 pm
A lot of people here are being critical on boxscores. Kind of hard justifying playing randolph ahead of andris and ronny when both players are. Granted Randolph been playing great <not consistant> so yeah i ask u all how many minutes does he deserve when u need to find the time for biedrins and ronny coming back from injury & monta and magette both deserve about 40 mins each

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:33 pm
Quazza wrote:So Martin- in a game where port don't have Oden, pryz or aldridge, your happy for us to STILL play small ball!?

Nelson last night proved he's not about match ups at all cos last night we could have used our hight advantage! But no, instead let's go even smaller and let cj go 0-8 in over 30 mins

bravo mr Nelson, bravo


i predicted that there would be lots of small ball simply because defensive mismatches - you can't put andris, who couldn't even guard juwan 'old as a world' howard on someone faster, turiaf is playing through knee that will need surgery once, i believe, we pass more weeks and oficial tanking is there. again randolph didn't play whole second quarter because of 3 fouls - he was basically left with maximum of 30 minutes of which he played 20 - here's is a portland fan's take on minutes

''1:33 - Don Nelson is awesome. Anthony Randolph has been in 3:32 and has already picked up three fouls, yet Nelson leaves him in the game. If that was McMillan—on any other night than tonight—a player wouldn't be back on the court until the final quarter after three fouls. 35-26 Warriors.''

see, it's not so unreasonable after all.

again warriors bigs are not so good to punish other teams bigs on offense - none of them has anything resembling post game and two of them are playing after injury, one through bad knee.

hell nelson even put radmanovic and randolph on miller because none of our smalls could defend and were in foul trouble (aka curry), miller burned randolph and radmanovic as well.

the point is that on defense our bigs were not so big advantage as their contribution on offense (i'm pretty sure if not randolph's 'going for all pump fakes that have ever existed' he would've played more - even through his mistakes) - they are not gasols and duncans.

so, yes, when blazers went posting up roy and especially miller,even when we were winning i felt we were in trouble.
to some degree i think aldridge and oden would have made this game easier.
portland's tactic worked and warriors had no cure for that.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:43 pm
PAWNO6124FF171 wrote:A lot of people here are being critical on boxscores. Kind of hard justifying playing randolph ahead of andris and ronny when both players are. Granted Randolph been playing great <not consistant> so yeah i ask u all how many minutes does he deserve when u need to find the time for biedrins and ronny coming back from injury & monta and magette both deserve about 40 mins each


It is not just the boxscore but is the easiest way to illustrate production. But no, boxscores do not tell the whole story.

But he deserves the chance to play starter minutes. Right now Radmonovich and Maggette are chewing up AR's minutes undeservedly in my opinion.

You realize that at PF and C there are 96 min available right? I would play AR 35, and Biedrins and Rony playing about 30. Rad can fill in min here and there based on foul trouble and game situations.

That gives us our three best rebounding, shot blocking, and interior defenders consuming all the minutes at those positions.

Would love to see a set rotation (subject to change based on foul trouble and certain matchups) that went somethign like this.

Starters:
PF - Randolph
C- Biedrins

8min mark 1st qtr - Biedrins checks out for Rony at C

End of first qtr min played:
AR - 12
Biedrins: 8
Rony - 4

Start of 2nd Qtr:
PF: Rony slides down to PF
C: Biedrins

6 min mark of 2nd qtr - AR checks in for Rony at PF

4 min mark of 2nd qtr- Rony checks in for Biedrins at C

Halftime min played:
AR - 18
Biedrins-16
Rony - 14

Then repeat something similar in 2nd half with 4th qtr min going to the combination of players that are playing the best ball.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:51 pm
PAWNO6124FF171 wrote:A lot of people here are being critical on boxscores. Kind of hard justifying playing randolph ahead of andris and ronny when both players are. Granted Randolph been playing great <not consistant> so yeah i ask u all how many minutes does he deserve when u need to find the time for biedrins and ronny coming back from injury & monta and magette both deserve about 40 mins each


I see AR at the 4 playing at least 30 and Maggette at the 3, but what's with Beans and Rony?, a combined total of 2 pts, 4 assists and 5 reb. in over 33 minutes????WTF
Ok they bad nights,

Combined minutes for 4's ( AR and Rad) = 32 minutes:
Combined minutes for 5's ( AB Rony ) =33 minutes:
Where are the other 15-16 minutes apiece at the 4 &5? Small ball strikes again!
We got outrebounded 43-36 by a team that no longer has Oden or Pryz. We had one successful rebounder last night and we used him a total of 20 minutes.
Last edited by War Years on Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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