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Are You Willing To Watch A Slow Down/Defensive Team In Order To Win?

Yes
8
80%
No
2
20%
 
Total votes : 10

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:28 pm
Chum wrote:Nellie needs a true scoring PG. Nellie needs a true scoring big-man that can run. Nellie needs great players.


Yeah, but that's what every coach needs to win. Give a top PG and a good big man to any coach and they'll have that team in playoff contention, at least.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:34 pm
carlgo wrote:People are confusing "small ball" with "fast ball". The key to winning is the "fast" part. Nelson, a flawed and destructive personality, simply tries to go too small and the team grinds to a halt because they get no rebounds and give up a ton of easy baskets on defense.

The Spurs are successful because of what?:

A. Their coach is a control freak, slow-down sort of guy, and that is the "correct way to play" (Dunleavy quote).
B. Their players are better and would win under any system.

The answer has been B.

Fast ball gives the team the best chance to win in the real world of not getting HOF big guys. The reason it has not been more successful here is that Nelson confuses "small" with "fast" and thinks magical thoughts about how the team can be fast without actually getting possession of the ball except on in-bounds after the other team scores after three successive offensive rebounds....

As I say all the time, Nelson is a great coach who coaches poorly, many people thinking that he actually sabotages the team for whatever dark Nellie reasons. No, "small ball" is a failure, but "fast ball" is both entertaining and successful.

I believe this roster could play fast and effectively with the simple addition of another mobile rebounder/defender and a rational coach who concentrates on good lineups, player development, decent defense and an actual offensive structure for those inevitable half-court episodes.

Fast ball is the answer and there wouldn't be the kind of complaints about the team if it actually played that style.

Personally, I hate sumo-ball and won't watch it. I will watch male porn before I tune into big guys grinding it out (don't get excited) while the coach runs up and down the court screaming out every offensive and defensive set.

Watch college ball now, if you can. Horrid. It is simply which team gets the more favorable charging calls and shoots the best from the outside.


I'm in partial agreement with you here carlgo. I think your distinction between "small ball" and "fast ball" is totally accurate, but I don't think Nelson WANTS to play "small ball." He WANTS to play "fast ball" but he can't get the talent for it.

Think back to the days when Webber came to the Warriors. EVERYONE thought we had a championship team. Everyone ie. the fans, Nellie, Webber, the rest of the Warriors, everyone. It was the last piece of Nellie's scheme. A truely talented big man who could run the floor.

I still hear people siding with C-Web over Nellie on this and it makes me sick. Nellie wanted C-Web to play center and C-Web didn't want to. He was a baby about it, and imho he destroyed what would have been the best shot for the Warriors to become champs since the 70s.

I'm of the opinion that I'd take a slow, unspectacular, defensive, grinder of a team if they would win. However I'd much rather watch "fast ball." I think Nellie would as well. Give him a talented big who can run the court and I think we'll all get the best of both worlds.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:42 pm
TMC wrote:
Chum wrote:Nellie needs a true scoring PG. Nellie needs a true scoring big-man that can run. Nellie needs great players.


Yeah, but that's what every coach needs to win. Give a top PG and a good big man to any coach and they'll have that team in playoff contention, at least.


Not true. I give you Jordan's Bulls, Larry's Celts, the current Lakers etc. Every team needs top level talent to win, but different styles of coaching do better with that talent at different positions.

Not every top big can run the floor well. Several top teams don't have great point guards. Nellie's system lives or dies with a big, a PG and the ability to run for 4 quarters.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:51 pm
Please can some of you guys just TRY and even contemplate going from this =

Image

To this =

Image
.
.
.
Because all this excuse making is exactly what our front office and Nelson wants, and is exactly what will keep us in this mire.

Just look around our team, look at the salary cap situation, look at our reputation, look at the players that have left and those we could have had..............watch a game and see how this "crappy" team is able to beat Phoenix, Boston and then be close to the Fakers in Staples when rotations and coaching makes sense.

Just open your minds and dont think that being a good fan means having blind faith.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:00 pm
Chum wrote:I still hear people siding with C-Web over Nellie on this and it makes me sick. Nellie wanted C-Web to play center and C-Web didn't want to. He was a baby about it, and imho he destroyed what would have been the best shot for the Warriors to become champs since the 70s.



Well if you knew the TRUE story, then you would not feel this way. The way Nelson treated Webber was truly disgusting and I can tell you that he lost most of the team by the way he treated him. Nobody had much respect for Nelson after that year, even guys that was "Nelson's guys". His treatment went beyond what a coach should do and in the real world was extremely abusive. Certainly I am not saying Webber was without fault, but knowing what I know about the situation, I would not blame anyone in the world for wanting out of that situation. And the fact that we gave him a rookie contract with an out clause after one season allowed him to do just that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:16 pm
bigstrads wrote:watch a game and see how this "crappy" team is able to beat Phoenix, Boston and then be close to the Fakers in Staples when rotations and coaching makes sense.


We did just get our bigs back, and those games were played under a returning Nelson.

bigstrads wrote:Just open your minds and dont think that being a good fan means having blind faith.


Don't think being a good fan means being a reactionary. Nelson has done some wierd things this year, so what else is new? He always has and always will. It's part of what has made him great, and he is a great coach. He'll go to the Hall of Fame and he'll deserve it. He's given the Warriors run TMC. He's given the Warriors their only bright spot in 13 years. So please excuse me if I continue to support him while the Warriors are playing crappy... and completely injured!

Personally I don't understand why he limits AR so much, but he must see something I don't, no suprise there. Nellie is, and always has been, a mad genius.

He is also giving unlimited minutes to Monta, who openly fueded with him. Nellie is there to win, not play some major mind-fuck game with the fans.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:25 pm
bada wrote:
Chum wrote:I still hear people siding with C-Web over Nellie on this and it makes me sick. Nellie wanted C-Web to play center and C-Web didn't want to. He was a baby about it, and imho he destroyed what would have been the best shot for the Warriors to become champs since the 70s.



Well if you knew the TRUE story, then you would not feel this way. The way Nelson treated Webber was truly disgusting and I can tell you that he lost most of the team by the way he treated him. Nobody had much respect for Nelson after that year, even guys that was "Nelson's guys". His treatment went beyond what a coach should do and in the real world was extremely abusive. Certainly I am not saying Webber was without fault, but knowing what I know about the situation, I would not blame anyone in the world for wanting out of that situation. And the fact that we gave him a rookie contract with an out clause after one season allowed him to do just that.


I'd like to hear your version of what happened. If Nelson did some horrible stuff to C-Webb, then I definetly could change my point of view. What was apparent, from the media at the time, was Webber didn't want to do what was asked of him by the coach, and what was being asked was perfectly reasonable.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:54 pm
to me playinf fast basketball is waht there is to sport named basketball. no, i don't enjoy winning 'playin bad no movement, two plays all the game' style. if you say, yeah, that's what our front office needs, well, i can do nothing simply because i like inventive, fast, tricky basketball. for me, the several minutes of play against the lakers, when biedrins was moving it while cutting was thing of beauty. there were so many different types of similar set plays that usaully you don't see nowhere in nba. this is what is so fun about nellie, he want to invent, to surprise and to play fun winning game. no, i do not buy any empirical crap that if fast ball has never won championships one should play ugly, slow, physical type of sport.
again, what psychological, motivational and personal disadvantages it gives to players and what is nellie as a man in regards to nellie as a coach, well, i'm not in the position to judge. but, as regards, plays he sets when he has his personel, well, they are thing of beauty for me.
i, for one, would take nellie type of offense (with big skilled men) ball over offense with slow boring uninventive (even if it's winning as much) type of traditional offense any day. i really don't know why defense is someway very difficult in fast ball system, maybe because having two unmovable bodies (which sums up half of defense) means being unable to play anythng resembling movement, quickness and such on offense, but if someone may pull out a way to win with fast beautiful style over slow unskilled 'i may ****ing punch you' type of basketball, i value it nine zillion times more.
why? maybe because i don't like sumo!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:56 pm
Chum wrote:
bada wrote:
Chum wrote:I still hear people siding with C-Web over Nellie on this and it makes me sick. Nellie wanted C-Web to play center and C-Web didn't want to. He was a baby about it, and imho he destroyed what would have been the best shot for the Warriors to become champs since the 70s.



Well if you knew the TRUE story, then you would not feel this way. The way Nelson treated Webber was truly disgusting and I can tell you that he lost most of the team by the way he treated him. Nobody had much respect for Nelson after that year, even guys that was "Nelson's guys". His treatment went beyond what a coach should do and in the real world was extremely abusive. Certainly I am not saying Webber was without fault, but knowing what I know about the situation, I would not blame anyone in the world for wanting out of that situation. And the fact that we gave him a rookie contract with an out clause after one season allowed him to do just that.


I'd like to hear your version of what happened. If Nelson did some horrible stuff to C-Webb, then I definetly could change my point of view. What was apparent, from the media at the time, was Webber didn't want to do what was asked of him by the coach, and what was being asked was perfectly reasonable.


Let's not forget, the media portrays a story one way, while a fan says it another way. I always felt the media had limits to some stories but had the power to completely blow up a story making someone look like the bad guy completely, only telling the basics and never the true insider. Not saying the media was lying, just saying I'd probably side with Bada on this one. Just my two cents...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:18 pm
Nelson a great coach because he is known to do weird things. That by far is the best excuse I have heard.

And then the excuse that injury is the cause for Nellie coaching poorly, no doubt injury has taken its toll on the team but I don't see Houston or Adleman making an excuse, both T-Mac and Yao are out for the year, but he has adjusted trusted players to step it up and did not give up on coaching. Nellie turns it off and on, mostly off if things are not right.
Cannot adjust, or just plain out adjusts the wrong way.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:40 pm
warriorsstepup wrote:Nelson a great coach because he is known to do weird things. That by far is the best excuse I have heard.

And then the excuse that injury is the cause for Nellie coaching poorly, no doubt injury has taken its toll on the team but I don't see Houston or Adleman making an excuse, both T-Mac and Yao are out for the year, but he has adjusted trusted players to step it up and did not give up on coaching. Nellie turns it off and on, mostly off if things are not right.
Cannot adjust, or just plain out adjusts the wrong way.


He's a great coach because he's taken teams with little talent and had them perform above their talent level. Maybe I didn't word things very well, but "small ball" is a weird thing. He created this style of basketball because he wanted to be competitive when he his team was unable to get top quality big men.

As TMC said "Yeah, but that's what every coach needs to win. Give a top PG and a good big man to any coach and they'll have that team in playoff contention, at least." Let's give Nellie those players and see what happens. If he still can't give us a top notch team then I'll change my tune.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:52 pm
Chum wrote:
bada wrote:
Chum wrote:I still hear people siding with C-Web over Nellie on this and it makes me sick. Nellie wanted C-Web to play center and C-Web didn't want to. He was a baby about it, and imho he destroyed what would have been the best shot for the Warriors to become champs since the 70s.



Well if you knew the TRUE story, then you would not feel this way. The way Nelson treated Webber was truly disgusting and I can tell you that he lost most of the team by the way he treated him. Nobody had much respect for Nelson after that year, even guys that was "Nelson's guys". His treatment went beyond what a coach should do and in the real world was extremely abusive. Certainly I am not saying Webber was without fault, but knowing what I know about the situation, I would not blame anyone in the world for wanting out of that situation. And the fact that we gave him a rookie contract with an out clause after one season allowed him to do just that.


I'd like to hear your version of what happened. If Nelson did some horrible stuff to C-Webb, then I definetly could change my point of view. What was apparent, from the media at the time, was Webber didn't want to do what was asked of him by the coach, and what was being asked was perfectly reasonable.


Hi Chum. During the early to mid 90's through my work, I had the opportunity to form relationships to some of the players on the teams. I became friends with a few of them and was invited into their homes and attended several social gatherings with them. It was through those relationships I gained a pretty solid understanding of what was happening behind the scenes.

I wont go into specifics as these were "off the record" conversations and while I dont have these friendships any longer, I still would not violate their confidence.

I am not saying the media was not accurate, as much of what they reported was accurate, however they were missing a huge part of the story that was happening outside their view. Webber certainly should not be absolved of all blame as he WAS an adult, he WAS under contract, and WAS being paid a lot of money, but the way Nelson treated Webber extremely abusive. He continually humiliated him and embarrassed him in front of teammates in a way beyond what any human should expect from another human. I understand that the "locker room" of professional sports is not "real life" and things go on there that would not be tolerated in business, but things he did go beyond what is even considered tolorable in the world that is professional sports.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:54 pm
Chum wrote:
warriorsstepup wrote:Nelson a great coach because he is known to do weird things. That by far is the best excuse I have heard.

And then the excuse that injury is the cause for Nellie coaching poorly, no doubt injury has taken its toll on the team but I don't see Houston or Adleman making an excuse, both T-Mac and Yao are out for the year, but he has adjusted trusted players to step it up and did not give up on coaching. Nellie turns it off and on, mostly off if things are not right.
Cannot adjust, or just plain out adjusts the wrong way.


He's a great coach because he's taken teams with little talent and had them perform above their talent level. Maybe I didn't word things very well, but "small ball" is a weird thing. He created this style of basketball because he wanted to be competitive when he his team was unable to get top quality big men.

As TMC said "Yeah, but that's what every coach needs to win. Give a top PG and a good big man to any coach and they'll have that team in playoff contention, at least." Let's give Nellie those players and see what happens. If he still can't give us a top notch team then I'll change my tune.


While I agree that players could be better, Nellie is at fault for putting his players at a dis-advantage by playing them out of position. Sg playing Sf, Sf playing as a Pf, Pf playing as a center, sg playing as a Pf..etc etc, the nba game is not like 10 years ago, players are bigger, stronger, faster, so match-ups are dictated by strength and length and not so much speed as NBA players now as fast as they have ever been.

Mis-matches can still be had without compromising height and strenth, like many have said before Nellie has confused "fastball" with small ball.

Overall I think you are down playing Nellies "Weird Thing" aka small ball THAT is the main problem along with his on/off coaching style. Even you think that small ball is a problem, well that is the MAJOR issue and concern from fans that don't like Nellie.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:13 pm
"Nelson is a great coach"

No hes not. He might have been once, but he his not now. And it's not the losing I'm basing that on. There's been countless times I've watched games and been left thinking, Wtf, at his decisions, or there lack of

look at the hornets game. Its late and we need a stop. He sits AR who's had 8 blocks to play maggs at the 5! WTF is that?!

There's been countless times over the last 2 seasons hes made flat out bad coaching decisions that's cost us big l
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:06 pm
Quazza wrote:"Nelson is a great coach"

No hes not. He might have been once, but he his not now. And it's not the losing I'm basing that on. There's been countless times I've watched games and been left thinking, Wtf, at his decisions, or there lack of

look at the hornets game. Its late and we need a stop. He sits AR who's had 8 blocks to play maggs at the 5! WTF is that?!

There's been countless times over the last 2 seasons hes made flat out bad coaching decisions that's cost us big l


Ahhh... The guy who thinks he can do better from the comfort of his sofa!

Whilst i agree with you Quazza that it's a substitute that leaves you scratching your head in relation why you'd take out the 7 foot guy with 8 block shots to put in the guy who's 4 foot nothing to play a position he's not totally accustom too.

There probably was a valid reason, I have no idea why he did it. But maybe Randolph had a ton of turnovers (you know for every night that dude has 5-6 blocks, the following evening he'll have 6 or 7 TO and get in early fould trouble)
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