Changing of the Guard (SG Stephen Jackson)

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When should Jackson leave?

11%
Trade this year
3
15%
Next Summer with Al
4
26%
Let go in 2yrs (FA)
7
48%
Resign him! I never want him to leave Oakland
13

Total votes: 27

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All Star
Posts: 2862
» Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:49 pm
Jackson is the leader of our team
He is usually the toughest man on the court
He can knock down game winning shots
He plays OK defense. Looks like he does a lot more, but its because we saw him in comparison to Mr. "no D" Boom Dizzle
He avgs about 20pts a game which is rare and special in the nba

however,


- inflated stats: yes he may post high offensive numbers but there are a lot of reasons for this:
1) he shoots A LOT (and isn't very efficient)
2) He avgs 39.1 minutes a game (#7 in the NBA overall and #4 in SF's)
3)Warriors try to score more than you. not beat you at basketball. remember we were #1 in ppg as a team.

- Team player is a big need: It's fun to watch the fast-paced game, but when we settle down into a half court, we don't know how to play with/help each other out. Jackson's has been labeled as a ball hog, and there have been many occasions where he plays beyond his talent level, (much to the teams dismay). He's the leader but not the franchise player... awkward. We don't need a role player thats trying to make the all-star team. I'd be happier with a Small Forward equivalent of Andris Biedrins. Someone that knows his role and makes the rest of the team better. aka Azubuike! fits the nelly system well, has a pretty good looking stroke, plays great D, and most importantly Plays within his abilities.

- We already have enough scorers: it was shown quite clearly last year that having 4 starters who can score really won't get you very far, as fun and as exciting as it is to watch. yes we have more depth this year, but we're still not a very well-rounded team (Compared to the rest of the West). remember we were 2nd to LAST in rebounding, and close last in Defensive FG%. Maggette isn't going to replace the assists per game Baron was putting up, and I don't know if Ellis will ever be a GREAT passer (hope he will be though).

- over valued: I think we as fans believe Jackson does a lot more than he really does because he displays so much passion and emotion on the court. Much like Kevin Garnet, Rasheed Wallace and Drew Gooden, we get the "idea" that he's playing really hard when the numbers don't always reflect this.

-Randolph: he is our biggest project thats going to be ready in a few years, and since the warriors have committed to Maggette for 5 yrs, it makes no sense that they would resign Jackson 2 yrs from now(at 32 years of age). somethings got to give

- Leadership: Baron's gone leaving the leadership role mainly on Jackson (and hopefully a little on Monta). shouldn't we just scrap Jackson now and let Monta feel the full weight of a team on his shoulders? It might make for an awkward transition when in two years we let him go and we kinda have to start all over again finding a leader, even though our talent is ripe for a playoff run.

- clearing Jax and Al Harrington will gives us a lot of cap room (with the addition of the end of the foyle buyout clause) so we can buy an up and coming star that can grow with the team and or take us to the next level.
--------

08-09 season - Jackson is dealt around the trade dead-line for no name backup or draft picks then its:

Ellis / Williams / Watson
Maggette / Belenelli / Morrow
Azubuike / Randolph / no name back-up
Harrington / Wright / Hendrix
AB / Turiaf / Perovic

summer of 09, Harrington hits free agency. we let him go.

09-10 season

Ellis / Williams / Watson
Maggs / Belly / Morrow
Azu - Randolph / no name
Wright / Hendrix / FA (cheap old vet)
AB / Turiaf / Perovic

between the summer of 2010 and the start of the 2011-12 season we make a move:

Maybe try to get Chris Bosh who's due to hit FA in 2010?
basically we go out and get our "Kevin Garnet" or "Ray Allen" at this point. An all star thats going to help the team significantly, but not demand to be the leader (it was still Paul Pierce's team at the end of the last season). Will have three developed projects at this point (AB, AR, and BW), so who's ever the weakest we send to the bench and spend the money on a proven all-star.

Jackson leaving is going to be bloody, regardless of when it happens. Why not bleed now, while the team is at it's worst? the big counter argument would be that Jax could give our team the swagger it needs, and make the transition from BD's team to Ellis' team less painful. maybe help us to a playoff spot if all goes well.

I still believe that letting him go sooner rather than later is the best decision though.
what do you think?
Last edited by first off on Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rookie
Posts: 187
» Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:41 pm
what is crucial is if he can accept a leadership role while at the same time, taking more of a back seat in the offense to Monta and Maggette (who is a much more efficient and gifted scorer). and that means he will have to be a bit more judicious with his shot selection.

if he can do that, he is still a very valuable player...especially for this team. nobody else on the squad has either the cajones or the ability to lock down defensively on the other team's best player---Jackson does. if for no other reason but this last one, he should remain a Warrior.
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Franchise Player
Posts: 9163
» Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:01 pm
Not sure where you got the "OK defense" from because he's one of the most versatile defensive players on this team. The dude went from frustrating the hell out of Nowitzki, who's 7 feet, to getting the worse out of the likes of Bryant.

Jackson CANNOT leave this team. You just can't put the weight of being a leader on a 22 year old. You just can't. You're already putting the ball in Monta's hands to play PG. Do you really want to add more to that while he's still so young?

IMO, the right time for Jackson to leave is in 2-4 years.
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Posts: 2862
» Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:34 pm
Maybe Vegi wrote: nobody else on the squad has either the cajones or the ability to lock down defensively on the other team's best player---Jackson does. if for no other reason but this last one, he should remain a Warrior.


What about azubuike? people say hes our best defender.
looking Per 48 minutes (granted Azu and Jax obviously don't see equal playing time. 24mins compared to 40mins respectively)....

Player || PTS | BLK | STL | O-R| D-R|T-R| 3pt% | AST | FG% | TO
S, Jack|| 24.6 | 0.49 |1.55 | 1.1 | 4.2 | 5.3 | .363 | 5.0 |40.532 | 3.3
K. Azu || 19.1 | 0.94 |1.24 | 3.0 | 6.0 | 9.0 | .364 | 2.1 |44.463 | 1.6

Keep in mind Jax is 6-8 and he's 6-5. look at the offensive boards and the blocks and tell me that kid doesn't have the heart to duplicate or exceed jax's Defensive skills.

Kids got heart, he just doesn't show it by picking up technical fouls and yelling every time he makes a 3pt.
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Posts: 2862
» Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:18 pm
xbay wrote: The dude went from frustrating the hell out of Nowitzki, who's 7 feet, to getting the worse out of the likes of Bryant.


a) Nowitzki is one of the softest PF in the league and is known to vanish in the post-season.
b) We have Turiaf to guard the Nowitzki's of the league now.
c) I think Azu would be a lot more focused on guarding Kobe since he's not as concerned with scoring on the other end.

xbay wrote:You're already putting the ball in Monta's hands to play PG. Do you really want to add more to that while he's still so young?


After half a season, we'll know whether Ellis at PG is working or not. if it's not, we could trade (at ~ the dead-line) for another point guard, assuming M. Williams can't make the starting position. If monta does work we trade for something else.

It's hard to fathom the idea of wanting to score less, and wanting some chaos (no leader), but I still think it's for the best.
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Posts: 3074
» Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:28 pm
warrior 4 life85 wrote:
xbay wrote: The dude went from frustrating the hell out of Nowitzki, who's 7 feet, to getting the worse out of the likes of Bryant.


a) Nowitzki is one of the softest PF in the league and is known to vanish in the post-season.
b) We have Turiaf to guard the Nowitzki's of the league now.
c) I think Azu would be a lot more focused on guarding Kobe since he's not as concerned with scoring on the other end.


A) OK, you're saying because he's soft he's easy to guard. There's a reason he was the MVP one season. And despite the choke against the W's (which was partially due to Jackson's defense), he took his team to the NBA FINALS. That isn't vanishing by any standard.
B) Turiaf will be guarding and banging down low with centers, not perimeter big men like Nowitzki. There's a reason why Jackson, a perimeter player, guarded him.
C) The fact is, Jackson is a better defensive player than Azubuike. Also, Azubuike is concerned with scoring, and is a pretty average (maybe decent) defender.

warrior 4 life85 wrote:
xbay wrote:You're already putting the ball in Monta's hands to play PG. Do you really want to add more to that while he's still so young?


After half a season, we'll know whether Ellis at PG is working or not. if it's not, we could trade (at ~ the dead-line) for another point guard, assuming M. Williams can't make the starting position. If monta does work we trade for something else.

It's hard to fathom the idea of wanting to score less, and wanting some chaos (no leader), but I still think it's for the best.


Remember, we're talkinga bout Monta as a vocal LEADER, like Jackson who isn't a PG. If Monta isn't a LEADER, then we don't have anyone, and assuming we can just pick one up easily midseason is wrong.

Role Player
Posts: 325
» Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:51 pm
this is a pretty good topic to talk about

we do need stephen right now to serve as a veteran presence...having both him and bd gone wont do us any good, no matter how much young talent we have stored up. that said, the OP was right in that jax may score alot of points but does so inefficiently...his 20 ppg came at a much larger expense than, say, monta ellis's. we could expect him to chuck a bit less now that bd's not there to set the example...but more or less, we cant expect him to improve much (if at all) upon last season. last season was prime sjax, and we'd be lucky for him to duplicate that again

make no mistake, jax helps the warriors alot more than he hurts them, and hes reliable in the clutch which is always invaluable. his positives outweigh his negatives, especially the badboy attitude he brings. i just think some of you are overrating both his offense and defense....on O he should ideally be a third option, and on D he's solid (and sometimes spectacular against certain players, like dirk) but for the most part no stopper
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Rookie
Posts: 77
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:32 am
we need to keep him. He is a great team player that does a lot for us especially with his leadership and mental toughness.
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All Star
Posts: 2862
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:36 am
Talk is cheap

If San Antonio has proved anything this decade, its that you don't need a VOCAL leader to win championships. It'd be nice if vocal leaders were consistent, but they rarely are. now think of the spurs... consistent as the laws of gravity - always in the discussion when it comes to who's going to make the playoffs or even the conference finals. And they've been doing it for almost a DECADE!!! they have smart players who work hard and just play well together (ironically this is the first year the may start struggling to get to the post season 'cause their getting old).

I think we have the potential to do the same in several years.

And what about Turiaf, isn't he supposed to bring toughness and the much needed vocal abilities (and dancing skills)?

I'd rather have a developed "quiet" team swagger of a team like the spurs, over a loud individual effort by a Jackson or Garnet.

Basically my point is: walk the walk and you'll talk the talk. not the other way around.
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Posts: 1143
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:50 am
One of the reasons why I hate the Spurs is because of their quietness. Makes the game so boring and less enjoyable.
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Posts: 3074
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:01 am
warrior 4 life85 wrote:Talk is cheap

If San Antonio has proved anything this decade, its that you don't need a VOCAL leader to win championships. It'd be nice if vocal leaders were consistent, but they rarely are. now think of the spurs... consistent as the laws of gravity - always in the discussion when it comes to who's going to make the playoffs or even the conference finals. And they've been doing it for almost a DECADE!!! they have smart players who work hard and just play well together (ironically this is the first year the may start struggling to get to the post season 'cause their getting old).

I think we have the potential to do the same in several years.

And what about Turiaf, isn't he supposed to bring toughness and the much needed vocal abilities (and dancing skills)?

I'd rather have a developed "quiet" team swagger of a team like the spurs, over a loud individual effort by a Jackson or Garnet.

Basically my point is: walk the walk and you'll talk the talk. not the other way around.


The Spurs are entirely different from us because they run a structured, micro-managed system. Their coach is their sole leader and he runs the entire show, and they play a slow-down, structured type of ball. We, on the other hand, run a fast, free-flowing style. We NEED vocal players on our team because our coach Nelson doesn't run a lot of plays and doesn't criticize bad shot selection.
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Posts: 2862
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:35 am
Whats all this mental toughness BS I hear?

being unafraid of taking the game wining shot doesn't necessarily equate to mental toughness.

Did we all forget that he missed the first 7 games of the season due to his mental toughness?
Who leads the team in turn overs and technical fouls?
who tries to do more than his talent permits?
On the break who shoots a three instead of looking for the open man?
Who shoots even when he's ice cold?
In general who makes the worst mental decisions with the ball (besides Kosta Perovic lol :mrgreen: )?

answer: Jackson

the only evidence of good mental toughness is his free throw percentage and Maggette has that too (also Maggs shoots a much higher rate).

People need to get their heads out of that man's ass, open their eyes, and realize that if Baron Davis didn't deserve the All-Star honors last year, Jax sure as hell didn't deserve them either.

Passion and Emotion don't = mental toughness and basketball IQ
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Posts: 2862
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:47 am
TheBodyGuard wrote:One of the reasons why I hate the Spurs is because of their quietness. Makes the game so boring and less enjoyable.


are you kidding?
I'd take a boring team that makes the playoffs every year, over an entertaining one that dips into it every 13 years! they're boring but they do have a swagger about them... you always feel that they're gonna find a way to beat the opposing team over 7 games. with us it's an "OMG we got out of the first round! How the hell did we do that"

If it works for the spurs, why the Fvck not? how many Championships have they won this decade? The warriors have a chance to change their style and develop into a less entertaining but more efficient team. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of always being on the bubble every year.
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Posts: 3618
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:26 am
we've been in the bubble for two years... thats not that much...
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Posts: 1099
» Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:12 am
I think we should keep our options open, I wouldn't mind packaging jackson with wright for a proven power forward or getting a younger more consistent shooting guard. These trades are unlikely tho so we should keep jackson for now and see how he does.

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