aletha33 wrote:i really believe we're playing as good a defense as we're capable of...seriously.

Gee, I hope that's not the case. We play NBDL defense...

Colt's right. Nellie's approach to the game never was (and never will be) stopping the opponent, but outscoring them. And it works and that's why we're tough to beat when we play at home, but we've got a serious problem on the road (psychological or whatever... we just suck). That's the only issue that's keeping us out of the playoffs right now.

coltraning wrote: Nelson ball is what it is, high scoring, no defense and usually entertaining.

This used to get said over and over on the Mavs forums. And yet the Mavs defensive stats under Avery Johnson, who concentrates on defense, were virtually the same as the defensive stats under Don Nelson, who never mentioned defense in his tenure with the Mavs. What is really the truth?

In Milwaukee, Nelson was a hard-nosed defensive coach, because he had those kinds of players. At his other stops, Nelson has coached to the strengths of the players on hand.

He knows his team has to play some defense. It appears it's taking him a while to get the Ws to play as much defense as he demands. And he does demand that his players play defense.

It's a fallacy that Nelson only gives lip-service to defense. Nelson has been an NBA coach too long to not realize the importance of playing both ends of the court.

David wrote:

coltraning wrote: Nelson ball is what it is, high scoring, no defense and usually entertaining.

This used to get said over and over on the Mavs forums. And yet the Mavs defensive stats under Avery Johnson, who concentrates on defense, were virtually the same as the defensive stats under Don Nelson, who never mentioned defense in his tenure with the Mavs. What is really the truth?

In Milwaukee, Nelson was a hard-nosed defensive coach, because he had those kinds of players. At his other stops, Nelson has coached to the strengths of the players on hand.

He knows his team has to play some defense. It appears it's taking him a while to get the Ws to play as much defense as he demands. And he does demand that his players play defense.

It's a fallacy that Nelson only gives lip-service to defense. Nelson has been an NBA coach too long to not realize the importance of playing both ends of the court.

I hear what you are saying, but the Mavs certainly, to the naked eye, seemed much more committed to defense under Johnson than under Nelson. That said, Nelson teams have always been highly entertaining, and his mavs were far more enjoyable to watch than were Avery, which of course could have everything to do with Steve Nash leaving when Nelly did. I would venture that Nash would make any team highly entertaining.

coltraning wrote:I would venture that Nash would make any team highly entertaining.

He would make most teams successful as well

migya wrote:

coltraning wrote:I would venture that Nash would make any team highly entertaining.

He would make most teams successful as well

He was trained in the Nellie system and is running a suped-up version of the Nelson system, now. Phoenix has the type of team Nelson wanted in Dallas but Cuban kept getting in the way of. Cuban's Nellie/Avery hybrid team is doing pretty well, as is the Nellie style team that Nash is running in Phoenix.

At one time, before he was trained by Nelson, Cuban tried to trade Nash but found no takers, due to his contract. Then, Cuban let Nash walk, without compensation, because Cuban felt like Nash didn't play enough defense and he thought he'd break down. All Nash has done, since, is win two MVPs in a row and is playing better than the past two years, this year.

Phoenix doesn't play any defense either, unless you look at the stats. Somehow Phoenix manages to play better defense than their opponents, head to head, during the game. That is, they hold the other team to fewer points than they allow, which is the object of the game. To win, you have to score more points than you allow (duh). Either score more, or allow less. However you want to look at it. The glass is half full or half empty.

It, allegedly, hasn't been proved that that system will win in the playoffs unless you count the system that Nelson trained in, and learned from, in Boston.

I feel like, unless the owner or GM interferes, that Nelson will get the same results with the Ws. It doesn't look like it will happen right away. Nelson needs to find out who's with him and who's not with him. Some guys will have to go. If Richardson would stay healthy, things would change right away. IMO.

It seems that the Ws are unsure in the zone defense. You see hesitations, looking around, then a belated run to the the guy with the ball.

The three-point shooters never seem to miss, their big interior guys get lots of slop and offensive rebounds and and the Ws seem to give up lots of easy points after working hard for their own.

I also think that the Ws have had trouble getting out on the break when in the zone because they get fewer clean rebounds, deflections and steals.

The Ws are just not good at the zone. Who knows if this is because of the personalities, Nelson not being able to teach it or what. It does seem that it is very simple and easily countered. Who has it fooled so far?

In a zone it helps have to have a huge guy in the middle that can rebound without actually having to block out. Unfortunately, guys like that are usually not good in the fast offense. And, the Ws have no such player anyway and won't anytime soon.

In any case, put me in the man-to-man camp. Make better use of our two lock-down defenders. Make each player responsible for something, block out, rebound and get the fast break going more often.

There is no law against man with zone principles, helping out and all the variations high school and college teams do all the time.

carlgo wrote:Make better use of our two lock-down defenders.

And who might these two players be? I must have missed the memo on this one.

uptempo wrote:

aletha33 wrote:

ChicagoTom wrote:Perhaps I am naive and old school, but a good chunk of playing good defense is working hard, playing determined and understanding the basic schemes of the team defense. I can live with the Warriors getting their tails kicked in from time to time, but not the way they did these past two games. They are better than that and we all know that.

Quite simply, some effort and energy on the defensive end would be appreciated. If the Warriors still get hammered, at least I can sleep at night knowing they gave it all they had not just offensively, but defensively as well.

I can't pinpoint it..is it a lack of desire? lack of heart? not taking pride in stopping your man? not grasping whatever team defensive philosophies are being implemented? is it because our guards are forever helping down in the low post - as we're always out-sized and out-muscled - and when we recover to the perimeter we're basically dead ducks, vulnerable to the penetration-kick offense? i just really don't know.

i certainly think we have the athleticism and length...at least in reference to the perimeter.

i really believe we're playing as good a defense as we're capable of...seriously.

i honestly think the lack of an interior defense just puts too much pressure on the perimeter players (which is just about the entire team) and it has a serious snowball effect...

when we're constantly scrambling, helping, recovering, and double-teaming, the extra pass on offense will usually find the open man...not to mention the fact that everyone loses there rebounding assignments, hence 2nd and 3rd off. chances.

It's called coaching and playing zone defense, two problems that this team has.

ya, it's something i called out a loong time ago.

David wrote:

migya wrote:

coltraning wrote:I would venture that Nash would make any team highly entertaining.

He would make most teams successful as well

He was trained in the Nellie system and is running a suped-up version of the Nelson system, now. Phoenix has the type of team Nelson wanted in Dallas but Cuban kept getting in the way of. Cuban's Nellie/Avery hybrid team is doing pretty well, as is the Nellie style team that Nash is running in Phoenix.

I see the Phoenix system as being quite different than nelson's. It is D'antoni's system, which is very much a Euro-style offense, run by the most creative PG since Magic. Both styles are exciting, for sure, but Phoenix's system reminds me most of the 80s Lakers or Celtics. There is very little one on one isolation in the Suns style, as they are always moving the ball to the open man, whereas with the ws, if they don't score on the break it usually ends up with a one on one iso play or a screen/pick and roll. One of the most impressive things about Phoenix is how they can be so effective in the 1/2 court set when the other team does get back on D. It's because their ball movement is so precise and they are committed to the extra pass. Rarely does that team force anything. It also doesn't hurt that in Nash, Barbosa and Bell they have 3 of the best three point shooters in the league. Ws shoot an unconscionable # of 3s for a team which is not exceptional at it. Our best clutch 3 point shooter is Jrich and he is out - we really don't have another good 3 point shooter on the team, except for Harrington.

coltraning wrote:I see the Phoenix system as being quite different than nelson's. It is D'antoni's system, which is very much a Euro-style offense, run by the most creative PG since Magic. Both styles are exciting, for sure, but Phoenix's system reminds me most of the 80s Lakers or Celtics.

Um... not so european. It's much, much faster than most european offenses (probably due to the kind of players D'Antoni has). I can see the comparison as far as ball movement, tho. But really I like the comparison with the 80s teams. Much closer than any euro-team to the kind of bball Phoenix plays...

coltraning wrote:Both styles are exciting, for sure, but Phoenix's system reminds me most of the 80s Lakers or Celtics. There is very little one on one isolation in the Suns style, as they are always moving the ball to the open man, whereas with the ws, if they don't score on the break it usually ends up with a one on one iso play or a screen/pick and roll. One of the most impressive things about Phoenix is how they can be so effective in the 1/2 court set when the other team does get back on D. It's because their ball movement is so precise and they are committed to the extra pass. Rarely does that team force anything. It also doesn't hurt that in Nash, Barbosa and Bell they have 3 of the best three point shooters in the league. Ws shoot an unconscionable # of 3s for a team which is not exceptional at it. Our best clutch 3 point shooter is Jrich and he is out - we really don't have another good 3 point shooter on the team, except for Harrington.

the lakers and celtics of the 80's ran isolation plays all the time... you don't remember iso's with worthy? low post iso's with kareem and magic? the celtics iso'd bird, mchale, and parrish all the time...

both teams encountered so many mismatches that team's were forced to double team, thus creating that scrambling defense in which an extra pass or two would create the open shot.

if anything, phoenix's style resembles that of the old Denver Nuggest w/ Moe, English, Fat Lever, & Kiki...not the laker's and celtics.

but i see the iso as a problem with the warriors...i think the isolation 'plays' that hurt us the most is when BD has the mentality to score...and you'll see him casting 3 pointers and shooting that crazy fadeway-off-one-foot.

aletha33 wrote:

coltraning wrote:Both styles are exciting, for sure, but Phoenix's system reminds me most of the 80s Lakers or Celtics. There is very little one on one isolation in the Suns style, as they are always moving the ball to the open man, whereas with the ws, if they don't score on the break it usually ends up with a one on one iso play or a screen/pick and roll. One of the most impressive things about Phoenix is how they can be so effective in the 1/2 court set when the other team does get back on D. It's because their ball movement is so precise and they are committed to the extra pass. Rarely does that team force anything. It also doesn't hurt that in Nash, Barbosa and Bell they have 3 of the best three point shooters in the league. Ws shoot an unconscionable # of 3s for a team which is not exceptional at it. Our best clutch 3 point shooter is Jrich and he is out - we really don't have another good 3 point shooter on the team, except for Harrington.

the lakers and celtics of the 80's ran isolation plays all the time... you don't remember iso's with worthy? low post iso's with kareem and magic? the celtics iso'd bird, mchale, and parrish all the time...

both teams encountered so many mismatches that team's were forced to double team, thus creating that scrambling defense in which an extra pass or two would create the open shot.

if anything, phoenix's style resembles that of the old Denver Nuggest w/ Moe, English, Fat Lever, & Kiki...not the laker's and celtics.

but i see the iso as a problem with the warriors...i think the isolation 'plays' that hurt us the most is when BD has the mentality to score...and you'll see him casting 3 pointers and shooting that crazy fadeway-off-one-foot.

I completely agree re BD and the 3s, it really hurts us. When he drives and dishes or gets to the rim he is such a plus, but for some reason he is under the illusion that he is a great 3 point shooter. You are right of course, about the Lakers and Celtics and isos. I remember them well, and who more than Kareem. What I meant was they also had fantastic ball movement, always making the extra pass to the open man, and as soon as the guy who was iso'd was double-teamed, he would kick it to the open man. In that way, the suns remind me of those teams. I was lucky enough to see the Celtics against the Nets in 1986 (that dates me for sure) and I have never seen a live game where a team moved the ball as well as that Celtics team did.

coltraning wrote:What I meant was they also had fantastic ball movement, always making the extra pass to the open man, and as soon as the guy who was iso'd was double-teamed, he would kick it to the open man. In that way, the suns remind me of those teams. I was lucky enough to see the Celtics against the Nets in 1986 (that dates me for sure) and I have never seen a live game where a team moved the ball as well as that Celtics team did.

i see now what you meant and you were right on...

phoenix is blessed with players that can post and iso, command the double team, and make the good pass that will either lead to an open shot or leave the D vulnerable to the penetration and kick...

Orr...you have nash run the pick n roll and have him put pressure on the defense that way...

either way, they have one great passer (nash) and the rest ranging from adequate (amare) to really good (diaw)...throw in some dead on shooters and a beast inside...those are your suns.

we on the other hand have one good passer (BD) and the rest ranging from scary (pietrus) to pretty ordinary (ellis, Jrich) ...and decent (Jackson, Harrington)

I think that's why we our "passing" game is lacking.

TMC wrote:

aletha33 wrote:i really believe we're playing as good a defense as we're capable of...seriously.

Gee, I hope that's not the case. We play NBDL defense...

Colt's right. Nellie's approach to the game never was (and never will be) stopping the opponent, but outscoring them. And it works and that's why we're tough to beat when we play at home, but we've got a serious problem on the road (psychological or whatever... we just suck). That's the only issue that's keeping us out of the playoffs right now.

I seriously think it is... No one is questioning their effort... the effort's there...you just can't play a zone in the NBA and expect to have good results..

again, how many nobodys have we turned into somebodys b/c they're left wide open to cast 3's...

why are we playing aggressive high energy man defense vs charlotte almost the entire game...and then, in the last couple of minutes, we zone up leaving Carroll for 2 wide open 3's... heart breaking...

and im not sure if you noticed, but their man defense...there was something different about it on saturday...more urgent...crisp...aggressive...

i dont now..could of been just me.

aletha33 wrote:I seriously think it is... No one is questioning their effort... the effort's there...you just can't play a zone in the NBA and expect to have good results..

again, how many nobodys have we turned into somebodys b/c they're left wide open to cast 3's...

why are we playing aggressive high energy man defense vs charlotte almost the entire game...and then, in the last couple of minutes, we zone up leaving Carroll for 2 wide open 3's... heart breaking...

and im not sure if you noticed, but their man defense...there was something different about it on saturday...more urgent...crisp...aggressive...

i dont now..could of been just me.

No, really. I must say I'm not a big supporter of zone defense. I think it should be used as another resource for specific situations of the game... but why we played so much zone is beyond me. There were games in which the zone was our basic defense.