Ike; Bad on defense?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:26 pm
aletha33 wrote:let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

Neither was I. To date, Ike hasn't taken a 3-pointer in his NBA career. I'm merely talking about his 10-15 footer (which is solid).

aletha33 wrote:he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...

Sometimes... but most of the time, the guy's the best inside scorer the team has (yes, better than Biedrins). His singular offensive game isn't the question; there's no denying that he's excellent against his man. The problems lie in all other aspects of the game: when he gets doubled, when he plays defense, when he's on offense without the ball, ect.

But Ike Diogu isn't a problem when he has the ball in single-coverage. To say otherwise just isn't right.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:49 pm
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

Neither was I. To date, Ike hasn't taken a 3-pointer in his NBA career. I'm merely talking about his 10-15 footer (which is solid).

aletha33 wrote:he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...

Sometimes... but most of the time, the guy's the best inside scorer the team has (yes, better than Biedrins). His singular offensive game isn't the question; there's no denying that he's excellent against his man. The problems lie in all other aspects of the game: when he gets doubled, when he plays defense, when he's on offense without the ball, ect.

But Ike Diogu isn't a problem when he has the ball in single-coverage. To say otherwise just isn't right.

agreed...once again a scoring machine in limited minutes...8 points on 80% shooting in 13 minutes - that is pretty darn efficient...even got a steal. Anyone who describes Ike as a bust (as Kawakami and Lepper did) is not paying attention. He figures out how to pass out of the double-team he will be lethal.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:29 pm
[quote="coltraning]... He figures out how to pass out of the double-team he will be lethal.[/quote]

Yes. Hopefully, Nelson let's Ike grow and not be afraid of making a mistake. It reminds me a lot of how last year whenever Biedrens got one foul, Montgomery would take him out of the game and demoralize the kid.

Ike is a personal favorite of mine. He could potentially be the modern version of Truck Robinson.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:28 pm
coltraning wrote:
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

Neither was I. To date, Ike hasn't taken a 3-pointer in his NBA career. I'm merely talking about his 10-15 footer (which is solid).

aletha33 wrote:he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...

Sometimes... but most of the time, the guy's the best inside scorer the team has (yes, better than Biedrins). His singular offensive game isn't the question; there's no denying that he's excellent against his man. The problems lie in all other aspects of the game: when he gets doubled, when he plays defense, when he's on offense without the ball, ect.

But Ike Diogu isn't a problem when he has the ball in single-coverage. To say otherwise just isn't right.

agreed...once again a scoring machine in limited minutes...8 points on 80% shooting in 13 minutes - that is pretty darn efficient...even got a steal. Anyone who describes Ike as a bust (as Kawakami and Lepper did) is not paying attention. He figures out how to pass out of the double-team he will be lethal.

That's the real trick.

If Ike could pass out of double-coverage, he'd improve to be a 15-18 MPG role player.

If he did that AND learned the playbook, he'd be starting. No BS about Nelson, no excuses, no what-if's, no jargan about how "Murphy is a big money player who'll get minutes regardless". If Ike knew the playbook and could pass out of double-coverage, Nelly would never take him out. Period.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:32 pm
#32 wrote:
coltraning wrote:
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

Neither was I. To date, Ike hasn't taken a 3-pointer in his NBA career. I'm merely talking about his 10-15 footer (which is solid).

aletha33 wrote:he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...

Sometimes... but most of the time, the guy's the best inside scorer the team has (yes, better than Biedrins). His singular offensive game isn't the question; there's no denying that he's excellent against his man. The problems lie in all other aspects of the game: when he gets doubled, when he plays defense, when he's on offense without the ball, ect.

But Ike Diogu isn't a problem when he has the ball in single-coverage. To say otherwise just isn't right.

agreed...once again a scoring machine in limited minutes...8 points on 80% shooting in 13 minutes - that is pretty darn efficient...even got a steal. Anyone who describes Ike as a bust (as Kawakami and Lepper did) is not paying attention. He figures out how to pass out of the double-team he will be lethal.

That's the real trick.

If Ike could pass out of double-coverage, he'd improve to be a 15-18 MPG role player.

If he did that AND learned the playbook, he'd be starting. No BS about Nelson, no excuses, no what-if's, no jargan about how "Murphy is a big money player who'll get minutes regardless". If Ike knew the playbook and could pass out of double-coverage, Nelly would never take him out. Period.


He has to pass out of the double team quicker. He has to know where his teammates are spaced out on the court. BTW, Ike is a smart kid. He and his brothers were good students. If he doesn't become demoralized, he should do fine.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:18 am
uptempo wrote:
#32 wrote:
coltraning wrote:
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

Neither was I. To date, Ike hasn't taken a 3-pointer in his NBA career. I'm merely talking about his 10-15 footer (which is solid).

aletha33 wrote:he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...

Sometimes... but most of the time, the guy's the best inside scorer the team has (yes, better than Biedrins). His singular offensive game isn't the question; there's no denying that he's excellent against his man. The problems lie in all other aspects of the game: when he gets doubled, when he plays defense, when he's on offense without the ball, ect.

But Ike Diogu isn't a problem when he has the ball in single-coverage. To say otherwise just isn't right.

agreed...once again a scoring machine in limited minutes...8 points on 80% shooting in 13 minutes - that is pretty darn efficient...even got a steal. Anyone who describes Ike as a bust (as Kawakami and Lepper did) is not paying attention. He figures out how to pass out of the double-team he will be lethal.

That's the real trick.

If Ike could pass out of double-coverage, he'd improve to be a 15-18 MPG role player.

If he did that AND learned the playbook, he'd be starting. No BS about Nelson, no excuses, no what-if's, no jargan about how "Murphy is a big money player who'll get minutes regardless". If Ike knew the playbook and could pass out of double-coverage, Nelly would never take him out. Period.


He has to pass out of the double team quicker. He has to know where his teammates are spaced out on the court. BTW, Ike is a smart kid. He and his brothers were good students. If he doesn't become demoralized, he should do fine.

One good thing is, demoralization doesn't seem to be happening so far. Ike appears pretty resilient about the whole deal, so he'll either end up thriving with us or someone else.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:24 am
At least Ike's playing a bit more the last few games... That should be motivation enough to work even harder.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:49 pm
#32 wrote:Neither was I. To date, Ike hasn't taken a 3-pointer in his NBA career. I'm merely talking about his 10-15 footer (which is solid).


that is an outside shot...god help us if he too starts with the 3's

#32 wrote:Sometimes... but most of the time, the guy's the best inside scorer the team has (yes, better than Biedrins). His singular offensive game isn't the question; there's no denying that he's excellent against his man. The problems lie in all other aspects of the game: when he gets doubled, when he plays defense, when he's on offense without the ball, ect.

But Ike Diogu isn't a problem when he has the ball in single-coverage. To say otherwise just isn't right.


he is definitely our best inside scorer for what that's worth...biendris definitely has no established post game.

to say that he's excellent mano-y-mano, just on my definition of excellent alone, I'd say I'd have to choose another word...adequate.

he did do good vs the clips.

we'll see how he turns out...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:53 pm
uptempo wrote:
aletha33 wrote:
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:he's mechanical and slow,

As are most post players.

aletha33 wrote:doesn't have much of a touch,

Kinda debatable... Ike's midrange is very solid. He's not an ace shooter; but he's in the Brand/Haslem category, as far as consistent midrange jumpers.

aletha33 wrote:can't score on lanky post men,

Or pass out of a double-team...

aletha33 wrote:can't score when there's body contact,

Wait, what?! That's how Ike gets, pretty much, all his points; he puts the ball in after being bumped and makes all his free throws. A lot of the time, he gets blindsided and there's no whislte... but he'll still put the ball in. Ike is a great contact scorer, from what I've seen.

Ike's problems are much more simple (and easy to solve): he's horrible on help defense (worse than Murphy), couldn't tell you what the playbook looks like, forgets when to set his screens and, instead, goes into business for himself by setting up position down low (which usually screws up the whole flow of the offense for those players who DO know the playbook), he can't pass out of a double team or a corner trap, and he's unable to run with Nelson's style.

Currently, Ike is amazing against his man (provided, his man's not longer and lankier than him), but becomes a burden on the team when the opposition chooses to double him down low or send in a long-limbed defender. Part of the reason that the Detroit game was so easy for him is: (a) they never doubled him and (b) Rasheed and Ben aren't lankier than he is.

But that's okay. The guy has obvious weaknesses that can all be corrected... with the proper development (y'know, that thing that most NBA big men need). In another year, Ike will be a force. But it's laughable to think he can be as unstoppable as everybody thinks he can THIS SEASON.


let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...


Whom would you rather see from this Warrior roster playing power forward than Ike?


well, now that he's are only choice, maybe this is the chance for ike to prove his worth...

he did good yesterday...it's a start...

but honestly, i would prefer barnes or pietrus for now...even though physically they're not comparable to ike, they do a better job playing that position...

let's hope that changes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:45 pm
aletha33 wrote:
uptempo wrote:
aletha33 wrote:
#32 wrote:
aletha33 wrote:he's mechanical and slow,

As are most post players.

aletha33 wrote:doesn't have much of a touch,

Kinda debatable... Ike's midrange is very solid. He's not an ace shooter; but he's in the Brand/Haslem category, as far as consistent midrange jumpers.

aletha33 wrote:can't score on lanky post men,

Or pass out of a double-team...

aletha33 wrote:can't score when there's body contact,

Wait, what?! That's how Ike gets, pretty much, all his points; he puts the ball in after being bumped and makes all his free throws. A lot of the time, he gets blindsided and there's no whislte... but he'll still put the ball in. Ike is a great contact scorer, from what I've seen.

Ike's problems are much more simple (and easy to solve): he's horrible on help defense (worse than Murphy), couldn't tell you what the playbook looks like, forgets when to set his screens and, instead, goes into business for himself by setting up position down low (which usually screws up the whole flow of the offense for those players who DO know the playbook), he can't pass out of a double team or a corner trap, and he's unable to run with Nelson's style.

Currently, Ike is amazing against his man (provided, his man's not longer and lankier than him), but becomes a burden on the team when the opposition chooses to double him down low or send in a long-limbed defender. Part of the reason that the Detroit game was so easy for him is: (a) they never doubled him and (b) Rasheed and Ben aren't lankier than he is.

But that's okay. The guy has obvious weaknesses that can all be corrected... with the proper development (y'know, that thing that most NBA big men need). In another year, Ike will be a force. But it's laughable to think he can be as unstoppable as everybody thinks he can THIS SEASON.


let me rephrase the touch phrase...

he's got pretty good range for a big man...but i wasn't referring to an outside shot...

he doesn't have touch when he's being bodied inside...

i swear he throws up some shots that would break the backboard...


Whom would you rather see from this Warrior roster playing power forward than Ike?


well, now that he's are only choice, maybe this is the chance for ike to prove his worth...

he did good yesterday...it's a start...

but honestly, i would prefer barnes or pietrus for now...even though physically they're not comparable to ike, they do a better job playing that position...

let's hope that changes.


Pietrus and Barnes are natural small forwards. I would like to see Ike and Dunleavy manning the 4 spot and Murphy and Biedrens the 5.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:48 pm
uptempo wrote:Pietrus and Barnes are natural small forwards. I would like to see Ike and Dunleavy manning the 4 spot and Murphy and Biedrens the 5.


of course they are...you asked me who i'd rather see instead of ike...despite the fact that they're 3's, i'd still rather have them there than ike right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:58 pm
aletha33 wrote:
uptempo wrote:Pietrus and Barnes are natural small forwards. I would like to see Ike and Dunleavy manning the 4 spot and Murphy and Biedrens the 5.


of course they are...you asked me who i'd rather see instead of ike...despite the fact that they're 3's, i'd still rather have them there than ike right now.


OK, I hear what you are saying; however, I do not understand why you would want Pietrus and Barnes playing instead of Ike at the 4. Please explain your reasoning. Also, the only way that Ike is going to improve is if he gets playing time in real game situations. To pass the ball out of the double team in practice is much different than in a game situation.

Lastly, this Warrior team is a horrible defensive and rebounding team. Ike addresses both interior defense as well as rebounding.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:16 pm
uptempo wrote:OK, I hear what you are saying; however, I do not understand why you would want Pietrus and Barnes playing instead of Ike at the 4. Please explain your reasoning. Also, the only way that Ike is going to improve is if he gets playing time in real game situations. To pass the ball out of the double team in practice is much different than in a game situation.

Lastly, this Warrior team is a horrible defensive and rebounding team. Ike addresses both interior defense as well as rebounding.


this stems from various reasons....

1) production. pietrus and barnes simply produce more than ike. whether it's a product of being a better fit in nellie's system or not, the fact remains, pietrus and barnes - take your pick - produce more.

2) for all the rebounds and ike will supposedly produce, he gives it back in his attempt to play defense. whether it's missing an assignment, forgetting a rotation, getting sealed in the paint (like elton did a few times yesterday), he's a liability...more so than barnes.

3) if you're going to put out a team that runs, commit to it 100%. As frustrating as it can get watching 'Small Ball', like many on the board have been saying, ike just doesn't fit in nellie's system now. ike slows the game down - it takes him a good 5 seconds before he decides to start his post moves...

i agree that the only way for ike to improve is to get playing time - but im pretty sure if ike plays a majority of the minutes, we'll end up losing games...so it's a tough situation.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:22 pm
aletha33 wrote:
uptempo wrote:OK, I hear what you are saying; however, I do not understand why you would want Pietrus and Barnes playing instead of Ike at the 4. Please explain your reasoning. Also, the only way that Ike is going to improve is if he gets playing time in real game situations. To pass the ball out of the double team in practice is much different than in a game situation.

Lastly, this Warrior team is a horrible defensive and rebounding team. Ike addresses both interior defense as well as rebounding.


this stems from various reasons....

1) production. pietrus and barnes simply produce more than ike. whether it's a product of being a better fit in nellie's system or not, the fact remains, pietrus and barnes - take your pick - produce more.


this confuses me. Please define produce. I give you that both barnes and pietrus are better defensive players, but offensively Ike is the most productive Warrior per minute by a long shot. he is actually one of the more productive offensive players in the league on a per minute basis. Look it up if you don't believe me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:22 pm
aletha33 wrote:
uptempo wrote:OK, I hear what you are saying; however, I do not understand why you would want Pietrus and Barnes playing instead of Ike at the 4. Please explain your reasoning. Also, the only way that Ike is going to improve is if he gets playing time in real game situations. To pass the ball out of the double team in practice is much different than in a game situation.

Lastly, this Warrior team is a horrible defensive and rebounding team. Ike addresses both interior defense as well as rebounding.


this stems from various reasons....

1) production. pietrus and barnes simply produce more than ike. whether it's a product of being a better fit in nellie's system or not, the fact remains, pietrus and barnes - take your pick - produce more.

2) for all the rebounds and ike will supposedly produce, he gives it back in his attempt to play defense. whether it's missing an assignment, forgetting a rotation, getting sealed in the paint (like elton did a few times yesterday), he's a liability...more so than barnes.

3) if you're going to put out a team that runs, commit to it 100%. As frustrating as it can get watching 'Small Ball', like many on the board have been saying, ike just doesn't fit in nellie's system now. ike slows the game down - it takes him a good 5 seconds before he decides to start his post moves...

i agree that the only way for ike to improve is to get playing time - but im pretty sure if ike plays a majority of the minutes, we'll end up losing games...so it's a tough situation.


OK. I now see what you are saying. If this is the case, then Mullin should trade Ike for a more athletic, slasher type of player. Ike, unfortunately, is one of the only players on this team that other NBA teams would want. Once again, Mullin has put together pieces that do not fit well together. With Nelson's small ball, Artest would have been a perfect fit.

...sigh...
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