Don't penalize a player becase he played with good players. Magic and Bird always had great supporting casts. Barry never had the supporting cast they had. He almost singl-handedly won the championship for the Warriors.

I don't want to argue but do you honestly think Bird would have been that good without Parish, Maxwell, DJ, McHale, Ainge, etc.? Use the same formula for Rick tyou use for yout argument for Hill. No supporting cast. Carried the team on his shoulders. Hwe didn't even have Thurmond in the Warriors championship years.

Do you remember what Isiaih and Rodman said about Bird? I'not going to go that far but a lot of Birds stats were helped because he played with several hall or near hall-of -famers. Now you want to have it both ways. I know you never saw Rick play. Tick was and old man when Bird start playing and Rick himself said that Bird could not keep up with himeven then. Fo you realize how fast Rick was as aforward? in his heyday Bird could not have kept up with him. He was a driver and a slasher. TRick ourscored Chamberlin in his 2nd year. Has Bird won ANY scoring titles?

The one big difference between you and I, pest, is that I saw these guys play. You are going by stats alone. You never saw Oscar, Bing, Barry, or even Gervin for that mater You never saw how they could control a game.

By the way, does World B, Free belong in this league?

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:
Hill's stats for the playoff series he has been in:
1995-96 = 19.0 ppg., 7.3 rpg., 3.7 apg. and 1.00 stlpg in three games against Orlando
1996-97 = 23.6 ppg., 6.8 rpg. and 5.4 apg. during five playoff games against Atlanta
Was injured in 1999-2000 playoffs (that ankle injury)

Hill's stats for those regular seasons:

1995-96 = 20.2 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 6.9 apg, 1.2 steals
1996-97 = 21.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.8 steals

His numbers go down during the playoffs. Not so much his scoring (slightly up), but his overall numbers go down. That's my whole point. I'm not saying Hill was a bad player, just that come playoff time, Reggie stepped up his game while Hill didn't.

It's easier to step up when you are a mediocre star at best! Hill played great in the regular season and the VERY FEW playoff games he was in! Had his team been better, they would have made the playoffs much more and gone much further and it would have been a better indication of how he performs in the playoffs, where he would most likely have stepped up more. As it is, he still did more, as far as averages, in the playoffs than shoot only Reggie Miller

migya wrote:It's easier to step up when you are a mediocre star at best!

It wasn't that easy. Reggie was, above everything, a shooter. And everybody knew he was going to take those shots. And he still made them. It ain't as easy when everybody knows what you're going to do.

migya wrote:Had his team been better, they would have made the playoffs much more and gone much further and it would have been a better indication of how he performs in the playoffs, where he would most likely have stepped up more.

IF... IF... IF... IF... IF... IF... IF... Ifs do not prove sh*t. With better teammates, they probably would have gone more to the playoffs. But, you know, IF he had had better teammates, his stats could have been worse.

Don't rely on ifs to prove a point, migya. Most of the time, they also can prove the opposite.

ReginaldLewis wrote:By the way, does World B, Free belong in this league?

He should. I thought about picking him with my last pick, but I wanted a more pure shooter. Still, he's another glaring omission, like Lenny Wilkens (as a player) or a few others...

ReginaldLewis wrote:Don't penalize a player becase he played with good players. Magic and Bird always had great supporting casts. Barry never had the supporting cast they had. He almost singl-handedly won the championship for the Warriors.

I don't want to argue but do you honestly think Bird would have been that good without Parish, Maxwell, DJ, McHale, Ainge, etc.? Use the same formula for Rick tyou use for yout argument for Hill. No supporting cast. Carried the team on his shoulders. Hwe didn't even have Thurmond in the Warriors championship years.

Grant Hill did what he did having FIVE guys try to stop him every single gae and the man still pisssed on them like they were weak kids! With one more star on his team, like the last season he was in Detroit when Stackhouse finally decided to show up and play properly and to his potential, Hill played better and his stats reflected that! Grant Hill was so great that he was seen as the second most unguardable player after Jordan! They made up what was called "The Grant Hill Rules", like "The Jordan Rules", that stated dos and don'ts when trying to stop Grant Hill!

In the case of Bird, he was a team player, much like Magic was, and not that much of a ball hog! He could have scored a fair bit more if he had say, McHale and DJ or Ainge on his team and not two or three more good players like he had.

ReginaldLewis wrote:Do you remember what Isiaih and Rodman said about Bird?

Those two coksukas couldn't handle losing and whined and spat every time they didn't get their way!

ReginaldLewis wrote:I'not going to go that far but a lot of Birds stats were helped because he played with several hall or near hall-of -famers. Now you want to have it both ways. I know you never saw Rick play. Tick was and old man when Bird start playing and Rick himself said that Bird could not keep up with himeven then. Fo you realize how fast Rick was as aforward? in his heyday Bird could not have kept up with him. He was a driver and a slasher. TRick ourscored Chamberlin in his 2nd year. Has Bird won ANY scoring titles?

Fact is - Parish, McHale and the rest of Bird's teammates looked as good as they did BECAUSE of Larry Bird! He made his teammates much better!

As far as Rick Barry goes - So maybe he ran faster than Bird........ WHO GIVES TWO CAHOOTS! The prik didn't shoot like Bird did (he was good but not as good), didn't rebound and pass as good as Bird and didn't play the defense that Bird did (Larry worked his arse off and defended pretty well)! Rick Barry is an alltime great but Larry Bird is a top 5 player alltime!

ReginaldLewis wrote:The one big difference between you and I, pest, is that I saw these guys play. You are going by stats alone. You never saw Oscar, Bing, Barry, or even Gervin for that mater You never saw how they could control a game.

No offense, that just means that you're fairly old! You saw the older guys play, good on ya, then you obviously saw the game of basketball develop leaps and bounds and the players more talented with every era! Certainly Rick Barry wouldn't be up to the knes in talent as guys like Kobe and TMac are!

ReginaldLewis wrote:By the way, does World B, Free belong in this league?

Why don't you ask the guy. Isn't he off in some forest sitting around a bunch of candles

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:It's easier to step up when you are a mediocre star at best!

It wasn't that easy. Reggie was, above everything, a shooter. And everybody knew he was going to take those shots. And he still made them. It ain't as easy when everybody knows what you're going to do.

Reggie hit SOME big shots but yet only shot 44.9FG% in his playoff career! Nothing compared to alltime greats like Bird and Jordan. The only reason why Reggie is remembered as a great shooter is because that's all there was to remember. The thin prik needed his teammates to do the rest for him

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:Had his team been better, they would have made the playoffs much more and gone much further and it would have been a better indication of how he performs in the playoffs, where he would most likely have stepped up more.

IF... IF... IF... IF... IF... IF... IF... Ifs do not prove sh*t. With better teammates, they probably would have gone more to the playoffs. But, you know, IF he had had better teammates, his stats could have been worse.

Don't rely on ifs to prove a point, migya. Most of the time, they also can prove the opposite.

We can only go by what happened and Hill has better playoff stats than Reggie

migya wrote:The only reason why Reggie is remembered as a great shooter is because that's all there was to remember.

You know, there's nothing, not a single play or game to remember from Hill in the playoffs. Not a single one. Better to be known as "just a shooter" than not be remembered at all.

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:The only reason why Reggie is remembered as a great shooter is because that's all there was to remember.

You know, there's nothing, not a single play or game to remember from Hill in the playoffs. Not a single one. Better to be known as "just a shooter" than not be remembered at all.

But Grant Hill is remembered! Remembered as a megastar of his era, top allstar votegetter in his ROOKIE season, great slam dunker and athlete and the best PointForward in history!

migya wrote:But Grant Hill is remembered! Remembered as a megastar of his era, top allstar votegetter in his ROOKIE season, great slam dunker and athlete and the best PointForward in history!

And as an underachiever. Don't forget that.

btw, we all know all star votes tell the whole story. After all, David Wesley got more votes last year than J-Rich...

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:But Grant Hill is remembered! Remembered as a megastar of his era, top allstar votegetter in his ROOKIE season, great slam dunker and athlete and the best PointForward in history!

And as an underachiever. Don't forget that.

btw, we all know all star votes tell the whole story. After all, David Wesley got more votes last year than J-Rich...

What I've said all along about Grant Hill is all true! He did what most players in history couldn't and if it wasn't for his ankle injury, he would have continued that, probably had playoff success in the playoffs with the Magic and been known as a top 10 player ever and would have been picked in the first two rounds in this draft

migya wrote:What I've said all along about Grant Hill is all true! He did what most players in history couldn't and if it wasn't for his ankle injury, he would have continued that, probably had playoff success in the playoffs with the Magic and been known as a top 10 player ever and would have been picked in the first two rounds in this draft

And here we go back to the IF... IF... IF...

BOOOOOO!!!! I expected something more original from you, migya.

migya, Being a little bit older is a blessing, not a curse. I guess kareem and Wilt are not very good either. Really, the game has not changed that much. Barry played much better defense than you think. He was a good passerand stealer. Besides, migya, why when i make a point. You piss on it, like when I mention speed? Just because it doesn't fit your man doenot mean it is not important.

Besides, Bird was not a good defensive ball player. no one had trouble shaking larry Bird, give me a break. he couldjump worth a damn. he was a big guy and agreat shooter. He had the biggest mouth since Reggie Miller. I use to watch Larry Smith of the Warriors shut Bitd down all the time.

One thing i said long ago is true. We all love ball players of our era. Lebron and Melo, and Wade, are doing no more than Dr. J., Iceman, Barry,

By the way, do you guys remember or heard of Charlie Scott or Walter Davis. I think they are two more guys that could be in our league. One reason I didn't choose Wilkens as a player is because i know you guys wouldnt remember hiom as a player. But he controlled a game like no one else in history. He had an unstoppable drive going to his left.

You know what's funny, 20 years from now you are going to espousing about the virtues of Grant Hill and the nest generation is to be telling YOU that he ain't sh*t. Keep on living young man. May you continue to grow rich and prosperous

P.S. Bill Gates is not necessairly smarter than Albert Einstein or Ben Franklin.

By the way, have you ever heard Barry talk about Bird on KNBR?

TMC wrote:

migya wrote:What I've said all along about Grant Hill is all true! He did what most players in history couldn't and if it wasn't for his ankle injury, he would have continued that, probably had playoff success in the playoffs with the Magic and been known as a top 10 player ever and would have been picked in the first two rounds in this draft

And here we go back to the IF... IF... IF...

BOOOOOO!!!! I expected something more original from you, migya.

Alright then - He was all that I said for 6 years

ReginaldLewis wrote:migya, Being a little bit older is a blessing, not a curse. I guess kareem and Wilt are not very good either. Really, the game has not changed that much. Barry played much better defense than you think. He was a good passerand stealer. Besides, migya, why when i make a point. You piss on it, like when I mention speed? Just because it doesn't fit your man doenot mean it is not important.

Besides, Bird was not a good defensive ball player. no one had trouble shaking larry Bird, give me a break. he couldjump worth a damn. he was a big guy and agreat shooter. He had the biggest mouth since Reggie Miller. I use to watch Larry Smith of the Warriors shut Bitd down all the time.

One thing i said long ago is true. We all love ball players of our era. Lebron and Melo, and Wade, are doing no more than Dr. J., Iceman, Barry,

By the way, do you guys remember or heard of Charlie Scott or Walter Davis. I think they are two more guys that could be in our league. One reason I didn't choose Wilkens as a player is because i know you guys wouldnt remember hiom as a player. But he controlled a game like no one else in history. He had an unstoppable drive going to his left.

You know what's funny, 20 years from now you are going to espousing about the virtues of Grant Hill and the nest generation is to be telling YOU that he ain't sh*t. Keep on living young man. May you continue to grow rich and prosperous

P.S. Bill Gates is not necessairly smarter than Albert Einstein or Ben Franklin.

By the way, have you ever heard Barry talk about Bird on KNBR?

I was not abusing you about being old but since you are old enough to have seen the nba some 30 years ago, you witnessed the dramatic change. I've seen fottage from the 1960s and the game was so slow and unskilled. It has gotten much better be we are all still giving credit to the older guys as well.

The so called experts and many analysts have long stated that Bird is among the top 10 players ever but they do not say that about Bird. You have your opinion but it is only that. All facts (stats and wide opinion by those that have analysed the nba over the years) show that Bird was better than Barry

ReginaldLewis wrote:By the way, do you guys remember or heard of Charlie Scott or Walter Davis. I think they are two more guys that could be in our league. One reason I didn't choose Wilkens as a player is because i know you guys wouldnt remember hiom as a player. But he controlled a game like no one else in history. He had an unstoppable drive going to his left.

I remember Davis. He wasn't bad, but still not good enough to be part of an all time draft. Never heard of Charlie Scott before, to be honest. I had to look for him in the Wikipedia.

ReginaldLewis wrote:You know what's funny, 20 years from now you are going to espousing about the virtues of Grant Hill and the nest generation is to be telling YOU that he ain't sh*t.

Hey, I'm saying so right now...

ReginaldLewis wrote:By the way, have you ever heard Barry talk about Bird on KNBR?

That ain't easy when you don't live in the Bay Area... You can watch games, but, other than that, you can only get news and interviews on the net. And some good stuff never gets posted.