32 wrote:Ellis plays nearly 10 more minutes per game than Jack.

NBA players' efficiency numbers almost always decrease with minutes. So that comparison isn't fair. Especially because TS% integrates field goal percentage heavily into the data, but barely takes free throw attempts into account (of which, Ellis takes twice as many as Jack). Slashers usually have poorer TS%'s than jump-shooters, but it's apples and oranges. JJ Reddick has a higher TS% than Ellis, but who starts?

I also attribute Ellis' high turnover numbers to the slasher style. He simply has the ball in his hands a LOT more than Jack, as evident by their usage rates. There are pro's and con's of course. BF has pretty much listed the cons accurately; slashers aren't typically efficient and can cough up a lot of turnovers (see Westbrook, Wade, MKG, etc). But the pro's of a slasher are harder to identify when you strictly use TS% because the stat isn't built for them. Free throw attempts and points are traditional products of slashers, but abstractly, you simply can't quantify the value of a guy who can create his own shot when the offense is stagnant. And as WSU pointed out above, we could have desperately used a shot-creator like Ellis during our January-February cold spell. Curry and Thompson are terrific, but usually they become more dangerous when you have a distributor like Jack or a screen-setter like Lee/Bogut to set them up for perimeter bombs. Ellis can get his offense in single coverage EVERY game. That's valuable, even if his style of play can be mathematically quantified as "inefficient." Such is life.

As far as the Jack-vs-Ellis debate... Come on now. I know you dislike ME11, BF... But this one's not even close.

warriorsstepup wrote:

Blackfoot wrote:Alright, I agree. He's talented physically.

I just thought it was disrespectful to Jack to compare his production to Monta's.

Because Jack is putting up all-star like numbers, especially lately, lets get real man.

Blackfoot wrote:

warriorsstepup wrote:

Blackfoot wrote:Alright, I agree. He's talented physically.

I just thought it was disrespectful to Jack to compare his production to Monta's.

Because Jack is putting up all-star like numbers, especially lately, lets get real man.

Jack doesn't have to be an all star to be heads and toes better than Ellis.

Blackfoot wrote:

32 wrote:Ellis plays nearly 10 more minutes per game than Jack.

NBA players' efficiency numbers almost always decrease with minutes. So that comparison isn't fair. Especially because TS% integrates field goal percentage heavily into the data, but barely takes free throw attempts into account (of which, Ellis takes twice as many as Jack). Slashers usually have poorer TS%'s than jump-shooters, but it's apples and oranges. JJ Reddick has a higher TS% than Ellis, but who starts?

I also attribute Ellis' high turnover numbers to the slasher style. He simply has the ball in his hands a LOT more than Jack, as evident by their usage rates. There are pro's and con's of course. BF has pretty much listed the cons accurately; slashers aren't typically efficient and can cough up a lot of turnovers (see Westbrook, Wade, MKG, etc). But the pro's of a slasher are harder to identify when you strictly use TS% because the stat isn't built for them. Free throw attempts and points are traditional products of slashers, but abstractly, you simply can't quantify the value of a guy who can create his own shot when the offense is stagnant. And as WSU pointed out above, we could have desperately used a shot-creator like Ellis during our January-February cold spell. Curry and Thompson are terrific, but usually they become more dangerous when you have a distributor like Jack or a screen-setter like Lee/Bogut to set them up for perimeter bombs. Ellis can get his offense in single coverage EVERY game. That's valuable, even if his style of play can be mathematically quantified as "inefficient." Such is life.

As far as the Jack-vs-Ellis debate... Come on now. I know you dislike ME11, BF... But this one's not even close.

http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008 ... fficiency/ Jack would still be the more efficient scorer once you factor in usage. True shooting percentage does take into account free throws, by the way. It's why Harden is more valuable than Kobe this year and has a better TS percentage.

Ask the Grizzlies as to how important it is have someone that can create their own shot. They have increased their offensive efficiency by five extra points since losing Gay.