How's Andrew Bogut's Rehab going?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:43 pm
You'd say Bogut is better than Mark Gasol? Than DeMarcus Cousins? Roy Hibbert? Brook Lopez? Al Horford? Joakim Noah? Greg Monroe?

Even with the injury risks?

Cause I see 4 dudes there (ALONG with Howard and Bynum) that most people would take over Andrew Bogut...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:23 pm
Yes, Bogut is better than all four of them in his full, healthy season.

Especially Demarcus, Hibbert, Lopez, Horford, Noah, and Monroe.

He's also better than Marc, but that's the only player that is comparable in skill set and impact.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what most people would dude. It really doesn't matter at all. It's the ad populum argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:11 pm
Blackfoot wrote:Yes, Bogut is better than all four of them in his full, healthy season.

Especially Demarcus, Hibbert, Lopez, Horford, Noah, and Monroe.

He's also better than Marc, but that's the only player that is comparable in skill set and impact.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what most people would dude. It really doesn't matter at all. It's the ad populum argument.

I don't know if Bogut is 3rd best center yet, because of his health issues he had over the years. I agree he better than Demarcus, Hibbert, Lopez, Noah, and Monroe. I don't consider Horford a Center he is a PF, because the Atlanta Hawks don't have a Center so they force to use Horford at Center. I have to see Bogut play in the West lead the Warriors to the playoffs and win a playoff series to be the third best Center in the league. I pick Marc Gasol over Bogut right now because I've seen him have an impact in playoff series and help the team win series.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:03 pm
Yeah, got to see how he plays healthy at this point. When he was healthy though, second best center.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:04 am
I can't say I buy that, bro. If we're taking health into account, I'd happily take Dwight, Bynum, MGasol, Horford, DeMarcus, AND Hibbert over Bogut. Even healthy, I'd still take Howard, Bynum, and Marc. Bogut is an excellent defensive asset, but I don't think you'll find a lot of people that agree he's second only to D12... and trying to say, "it doesn't matter if people buy it cause it's true" is a circular argument: you can't say something is proven by the merits of you believing it. Statistically, the numbers are against him. Health-wise, he wants the benefit of the doubt. He's missed 161 games (and counting) since 2007. And when he's on the floor, you need to stress new age, sabermetric style stats to display his value cause on paper he's only a 13 and 9 center.

I'm not trying to get it twisted and claim I don't think Bogut is top 5 (or possibly even top 3) center when healthy - i do, i absolutely do - but this business about playing too soon on a flimsy ankle that had unannounced microfracture surgery and now being out indefinitely (maybe til December, maybe January, maybe April, who knows)... It's all very sketchy and it makes envisioning his return a lot harder to picture. Ultimately, that'll chip at a guy's value; never knowing if he's in the lineup or not. In honesty, it's an absolute joke that I'm even speaking Bogut and DeMarcus/Hibbert in the same sentence, but it's unfortunately the truth since Bogut is constantly being 86'd from the menu.

(side note - great debate, boys. Been a long time since we've had such productive, informed members!)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:46 pm
You know, I just never thought Udoh was much more than a possible backup PF. He performed well in limited time for the team when he was here, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is out of the league in five years. There are better bigs coming in from college all the time, heck, Bucks seem to be putting Henson, the rookie, ahead of him already.

Bogut's health is a huge issue and becoming something that I'm starting to think might lead to some sort of longterm problem, but I'll stay positive until, if at all, that becomes a fact. I ranked Bogut as 3rd/4th best Center with MGasol, but now I'd rank him maybe 5th and that's because Cousins of Kings and Horford, who is the Hawks Center, are performing so well this season. If Bogut returns and is the huge factor defensively that he has always been, then I'd say he's 3rd/4th again. Bogut's value is totally on how he improves the team and that has been seen in the past few years with how the Bucks were so much better with him than without him.

I'd like to add that Bynum, though definately the 2nd best Center when he's played, has been injured often throughout his career and right now, is as big a health issue, if not more, than Bogut and I'd be concerned if I was a Philly fan, because his attitude seems quite immature in handling all this.

I'm so glad we got Ezeli, a player that right now should be getting more court time in games. I don't think Barnes would be here if the trade for Bogut hadn't happened, as the team would have had at least three or four more wins, considering how close most of the losses at the end of last season were, and therefore Utah would have gotten the pick.

It looks more and more like we won't see the real effect of the trade for Bogut this season, though the team is looking like a playoff one anyway. With Bogut healthy, every player will be improved and have it easier on the court and Barnes and Klay will only get better.

The trade had to be done and this ownership and FO is much better than any we've had for the last twenty years.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:04 pm
migya wrote:The trade had to be done and this ownership and FO is much better than any we've had for the last twenty years.
My thoughts exactly. I loved Monta from the moment he put on a GSW uni, but this is a franchise that has been desperate for a good center for a long time. This deal was all about upside, if Bogut doesn't pan out, well at least we tried instead of sitting around hoping a Dwight, Chandler or DeAndre Jordan either fall into our laps in a trade/rental or by some miracle one of those guys can actually point Oakland out on a map and decide to sign with someone other than LA, NY, MIA, BOS, CHI...

Maybe I'm overly-optimistic or just stupid/naive, but I believe him when he says that he'll be back this season. I just hope it's in time for him to develop playoff-level chemistry with the rest of our guys.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:03 pm
I'd been saying they should trade Monta for years. After the year they beat Dallas in the playoffs, it was clear to me, he's just not a winning ballplayer. I always wanted them to trade him while his value was sky high, with a pick or another player, for a quality big man. Of course that's easier said than done, as teams don't just let a good big man go. Now with the Bogut deal....I mean look, Bogut is not even playing, and the team is already better without Monta. I just don't think he's a winning ballplayer if he is one of the guys that the team focuses its play around. As more of a role player or backup I think he'd be most effective.

As for Bogut, yes it is very disappointing, as we all were told and expected him to be healthy for the beginning of the season. Now some doctors are saying it could take a whole year to recover. At this point I guess I have no choice but to be okay with that. The strange thing is that he is only under contract for one more year after this....so if he doesn't really get to play this year, or get back to his old form, then next year will be his big contract year.....and if he has a big year then, will the Warriors be able to afford him in free agency ? If he doesn't play that great they could re-sign him without breaking the bank. But if he plays really well he would command a big contract. Which I guess would make that last contract year the "do or die" year for them to make a playoff run. This is all speculation. Who knows, maybe he will be perfectly healthy for the last 25 games this year and lead the Warriors into the playoffs. That would be crazy. But realistically, it's starting to look more and more like it's going to take him a year to be 100%, if he ever will be.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:10 pm
Oh yeah, it's kind of silly to compare Bogut to other centers in the league and rank him, top 5, top 3 whatever. These days there just aren't that many good centers. You don't even need a real center to win a championship. So all this talk about top 3 this blah blah....really means nothing, you just need to be an effective player, an excellent defender and rebounder. It's great if you are Shaq or somebody and dominate the game....but what big man is doing that these days ? Nobody. It's a team game. You need a good big man to win, sure, but it's not like he has to be an all-star.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:18 pm
It's definitely not the golden age of centers anymore, but that doesn't devalue their position, it just increases the value of the good ones. Scarcity increases the value of things.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:50 pm
I think J1000's point is that Bogut may be a Top 5 center when he's healthy, but being a Top 5 center these days apparently just means you set broad screens, finish around the rim, rebound your position, and defend with your hands up (not necessarily block shots; just changing them and avoiding fouls is good enough these days). Bogut does all that and is a top player at his position, but the position doesn't impact the game like it used to; in fact, some teams are starting to play with 3 forwards instead of even bothering with traditional centers because so few of them exist anymore and the better ones are either untradable or perpetually injured.

And regarding J1000's point about trading Ellis, which seems to be a theme throughout this thread, I want to once again clarify: nobody is claiming we should have held onto Ellis or otherwise avoided trading him; what those of us are saying is that Ellis was a tradable asset whom other teams would surrender players for... Thus, if Bogut never gets back to playing consistently again, there will always be those of us that believe we could have gotten more - in a transactional sense. Nobody wanted to keep Ellis and everybody liked tanking enough to keep Barnes; what we are simply saying is that tanking has nothing to do with trading Monta Ellis and even though Bogut is a zillion times better than guys like Martin Gortat, if he never plays again, I'd rather have traded Ellis for a guy like that.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:12 pm
I like Gortat.*shrugs*
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:29 pm
32 wrote:I think J1000's point is that Bogut may be a Top 5 center when he's healthy, but being a Top 5 center these days apparently just means you set broad screens, finish around the rim, rebound your position, and defend with your hands up (not necessarily block shots; just changing them and avoiding fouls is good enough these days). Bogut does all that and is a top player at his position, but the position doesn't impact the game like it used to; in fact, some teams are starting to play with 3 forwards instead of even bothering with traditional centers because so few of them exist anymore and the better ones are either untradable or perpetually injured.

And regarding J1000's point about trading Ellis, which seems to be a theme throughout this thread, I want to once again clarify: nobody is claiming we should have held onto Ellis or otherwise avoided trading him; what those of us are saying is that Ellis was a tradable asset whom other teams would surrender players for... Thus, if Bogut never gets back to playing consistently again, there will always be those of us that believe we could have gotten more - in a transactional sense. Nobody wanted to keep Ellis and everybody liked tanking enough to keep Barnes; what we are simply saying is that tanking has nothing to do with trading Monta Ellis and even though Bogut is a zillion times better than guys like Martin Gortat, if he never plays again, I'd rather have traded Ellis for a guy like that.



If the positional argument doesn't work his impact is amazing. In Bogut's peak year the Bucks were third in defensive efficiency with him on the court and 29th in defensive efficiency without him on the court. That's why if someone told me I'd have 50/50 chance of getting a peak Bogut and only lose Ellis and Udoh, I'd take that every single time. Especially when the alternative is OJ Mayo and Thabeet.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:00 pm
It has been readily known for the last three or four years that Monta was highly valued by Warriors fans only. Seemed like most fans of other teams and quite a number of nba analysts didn't think Monta was as good as his stats and I agreed and still do. I don't think the team would have gotten as much for Monta as Bogut and that was only because he was injured when traded for.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:19 am
J1000 wrote:I'd been saying they should trade Monta for years. After the year they beat Dallas in the playoffs, it was clear to me, he's just not a winning ballplayer. I always wanted them to trade him while his value was sky high, with a pick or another player, for a quality big man. Of course that's easier said than done, as teams don't just let a good big man go. Now with the Bogut deal....I mean look, Bogut is not even playing, and the team is already better without Monta. I just don't think he's a winning ballplayer if he is one of the guys that the team focuses its play around. As more of a role player or backup I think he'd be most effective.

As for Bogut, yes it is very disappointing, as we all were told and expected him to be healthy for the beginning of the season. Now some doctors are saying it could take a whole year to recover. At this point I guess I have no choice but to be okay with that. The strange thing is that he is only under contract for one more year after this....so if he doesn't really get to play this year, or get back to his old form, then next year will be his big contract year.....and if he has a big year then, will the Warriors be able to afford him in free agency ? If he doesn't play that great they could re-sign him without breaking the bank. But if he plays really well he would command a big contract. Which I guess would make that last contract year the "do or die" year for them to make a playoff run. This is all speculation. Who knows, maybe he will be perfectly healthy for the last 25 games this year and lead the Warriors into the playoffs. That would be crazy. But realistically, it's starting to look more and more like it's going to take him a year to be 100%, if he ever will be.




When you say a year, do you mean a year from now or from the injury?
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